| Author | Message | ||
     Fiona Powell Username: Fionap Registered: 12-2003 |
re. one of Philippa's percipient q's asked whether we drive any straight steps across the centre line in the serpentine. I understood from a Very High-up Judge that a "loop" in driven dressage must always have straight sides. Please would someone kindly haul us/me out of our/my quagmire of misapprehension? Are the judges expecting any straight strides across the centre line? If they are, how many (approximately)? (Apologies if this has already been answered - if so, I couldn't find it!) Thank you. | ||
| Mike Watts Username: Mikew Registered: 10-2006 |
I think you are perfectly well allowed to drive the whole test one handed if you like (!) so I imagine doing the transition to one handed early is fine? | ||
| Rita Bundock Username: Roanmare Registered: 11-2007 |
One handed bit - simple - drive in the coaching style, both reins are in the left hand with the right hand assisting. Way back in the year dot to drive with a rein in each hand was just not done!! so us old uns were taught to drive coaching style. Don't know how to drive in the coaching method? It really is not that difficult and maintains a more even contact on the mouth as only one hand moves. Left rein over the top of the left fore finger - right rein between middle and ring finger -the rein ends then drop down through the hand - the right hand fingers lay on the reins about four to six inches in front of left hand - with the fore finger over the top rein (left rein) with the right rein between middle and ring finger. Still with me? To make a turn - with your right hand squeeze the rein required - with the fingers over that rein - and gently pull it back towards the left hand. To do so one handed - this is the tricky bit - with right hand take a loop of the required rein and tuck it under your left thumb,if not enough loop was taken rotate your left hand to increase the amount of contact required to get the turn, when movement completed just release the loop and your reins return to the same contact as you had before the turn. The left hand should be near the body between waist and chest and around six inches away and the hand should be with the thumb on top. While you are doing all this the whip must stay in you right hand, a well balanced whip will lay comfortably between right thunb and heel of hand. Only two weeks to learn!! Easy..... Have fun Rita | ||
| Philippa Ellen Username: Philippae Registered: 03-2010 |
Thank you for the clarification re serpentines. One more question : With regard to the one handed movement in the open test, is it necessary to change to one handed exactly at F or would it be permissible to have reins in one hand from, for instance, A onwards? Steering is easier if I can come round the corner and across the diagonal with a consistent contact, without the added complication of transferring the right rein across while going round the corner. Is it judged on the ponies' precision (which will be much more accurate if I'm not fumbling my reins!) and we just have to be one handed for at least the length of the diagonal? How is everyone else finding this movement??? | ||
| IHDTC Office Username: Ihdtcoffice Registered: 01-2003 |
Precision = accuracy. The whole arena must be used, remembering the arena is oblong NOT oval. So many prople forget the corners need to be driven into. Serpentine loops go to the boards in a half circle NOT a point and are of EQUAL size. The arena is 50m long - 3 loops - work it out how big each loop should be so that you start and finish the movement on the outside track. No where in the test does it say 5m from the boards so where has that bit come from. Perhaps this test is too technical. Barry and Leoine Marshall have very kindly writen the tests for the Championship in the past with no complaints. Dilys Gordon wrote it this year producing lots of questions. The diagrams that Mike has put on the site are what we are using for our Judges who are ALL BD listed panel judges, who will be judging what is in front of them not the face or previous history. So it will be the same and fair for all competitors. Fun will be had by all, this is a fun sport, it was designed to be fun not technical and difficult. cu at Keysoe - P&P will be interesting!! Rita | ||
| Mike Watts Username: Mikew Registered: 10-2006 |
I am sorry it is difficult to get this clear. Regarding the shapes of figures, for this competition we have the guidance of the organiser, Rita, below: "Just check out the diagrams that Mike put on the Forum, these are correct and are being used by our judges at the Championship. This I know cos I sent them!" You can find the diagrams here. While they are schematic - not 100% to scale - they are as close as I could make them, for instance they show the serpentine going to the edge of the arena, and the 15m circles not going to the very edge of the arena near A and C for instance. I agree with Daniel's point that the tests in general are inconsistent on whether loops refer to the centreline or outside wheel of the vehicle. They are at best a guide to the line to be followed - the differences wouldn't normally be visible, but this thread shows places where it would matter - these 15m circles near A,C, and also shows the difficulty for competitors and trainers; in this thread the author of the test says it means one thing while a senior judge + the organiser says it means something else (as far as I can understand it). All this is just about the track to be driven - the simple measurements and geometry. Once you start looking hard at the words describing the paces it seems even harder (some of the FEI driving paces rules look physically impossible to me). I think the whole area needs more clarity. ....but for this competition, follow the diagram, it's what the judges will have too. | ||
| Daniel Paffett Username: Dpaff Registered: 03-2010 |
And while we are on definitions what exactly is a "progressive halt"? I have a rough idea of something that is not abrupt but what exactly would a judge look for and what would a judge mark down? | ||
| James Rooney Username: Jamesr Registered: 03-2010 |
Oh dear! .......What a mess ! I am in full agreement with Barry Marshall's comments relating to the Championship tests. I am a current FEI judge and novice driver. Dressage tests at every level must be clear , concise, and without ambiguity. Sadly , in the case of these championship tests,there is a real lack of clarity. In addition to the 15m crcle saga, the serpentine looms! A serpentine of 3 equal loops is required..reasonable..but how do we perform this movement?..do we touch the edge of arena with each loop? or 5 metres each side of the center line ? or somewhere in between? All of which are correct by the current wording , but will the judges be aware of this? All tests need to be very very clear and leave no room for confusion !... Could we please have complete clarity on the whole issue before Keysoe ? James Rooney | ||
| Daniel Paffett Username: Dpaff Registered: 03-2010 |
So in a 40m arena how would you do a semicircle from B to X and go back up the centre line? Your outside wheel would be on X at the end of the semicircle but you would be off centre going up the centre line. | ||
| Mike Watts Username: Mikew Registered: 10-2006 |
I think it has to be the outside wheel of a turnout that does the circle diameter - otherwise you could never do a 20m circle within a 20m arena, 40m circle in 40m arena etc. (If you did it with the centre of the vehicle, the outside wheels would go outside the arena, which is uncomfortable and annoys the course builders). If only we were that accurate ... | ||
| Daniel Paffett Username: Dpaff Registered: 03-2010 |
15m Circles. I think the problem here is that it is the centre of the turnout that must describe the 15m circle. If you follow that literally in step 2 (of either dressage) your outside wheels would go outside the arena at H. Therefore you must flatten off the circle at H and keep your outside wheels inside the arena.. So it’s not a proper circle. But what exactly have the judges been instructed to look for? That’s the question! | ||
| Philippa Ellen Username: Philippae Registered: 03-2010 |
May I ask for clarification regarding the serpentine - Should we be driving a series of half circles as per the diagram, ie staying on the left bend until 'I' and then right bend until 'L' , possibly with a few straight strides in between? Sorry to ask something so basic, but I'm sure I recall being told to drive diagonal lines for a serpentine while practicing for other tests! | ||
| Barry Marshall Username: Barrym Registered: 03-2010 |
Well done Rita I hope you have now put minds at rest!I am sorry to "pull rank" on Ditys but she is giving out very wrong information re the championship tests.I have judged dressage from prelim to grand prix in 23 countries and a 15m circle is and must be, a 15m circle!so to say it never is in ridden dressage is untrue. As to the medium walk, please do not start using terms that are not used by BD the FEI or any other dressage world association "Working walk" does not exist! Indoor and BHDTA have worked hard in the last few years to raise the standard of driven dressage in this country and we must stick to classical principles and terms. Barry Marshall | ||
| IHDTC Office Username: Ihdtcoffice Registered: 01-2003 |
The 8.33 m comes from dividing the arena length into equal distances for the positioning of the side markers in a 50m long arena. Simple! | ||
| Ginny White Username: Ginnyw Registered: 11-2006 |
Thanks for that Rita, the 15m circle is not really the problem,but having spent years riding dressage in areanas designed in 20m sections,i thought then that 6m and 14m between letters was strange, i wonder where the 8.33m came from!.My mathmatical husband who niether rides or drives, and i thought the 1/4 and 3/4 was refering to across the arena. Anyway lets hope my test doesn't look too pair shaped hee hee.While my head is above the parapit i would like to thank all involved for a great winter season of indoor driving. And Alice (she knows who she is) nearly got us all in trouble at Forest Edge we did apologies to Steve, and Penny who have been great hosts. So Alice's idea, some of us that have a creative streak could make a moveable save flower arrangement to scare are driving partners!.The van drivers must not at this point panic, i would suggest the driver that makes it keeps it in their lorry for events.The white sqaures used are a meter sq so with a board that fits in the centre with flowers above would look pretty! and prepare us for decorated events. So a crazy idea? well if not we have 7mths to make one we only need 4 per area to make a little show. So Alice we await the creation and i will try. | ||
| Rita Bundock Username: Roanmare Registered: 11-2007 |
Championship P&P test - Confused? Watch this space! Someone will explain if I have this wrong! 1/4 & 3/4 line refers to the length of the arena - so the 1/4 line is 1/2way between the corner of the arena and A or C - so that means the 3/4 line is 1/2 way between the other arena corner and A or C which means A & C are 1/2 way between each of the corners at each end of the arena. The line between A & C is known as the Centre Line, which you wobble up when first entering the arena.. Markers on the centre line between A & C: Enter at A then we have D - which is the next one up from A - L (lower) is next before X, then follows I which is just before G - normally where you stop and salute the judge. Centre line markers maybe marked in some way but mainly only X is marked. So where are the others? For every marker on the outside of the arena there is a marker on the centre line. So D is on the Centre Line between the outside markers of K & F, and so on up the Centre Line..... Circles = arn't they round things? - 15 metres - has this changed? I know I went to school a million years ago and it is no longer yards - still confused!...Clear as mud!??????? Just check out the diagrams that Mike put on the Forum, these are correct and are being used by our judges at the Championship. This I know cos I sent them! cu all at Keysoe. Rita | ||
| Ginny White Username: Ginnyw Registered: 11-2006 |
Hi would i be alone in wondering what is meant by 1/4 3/4 line between the markers M and G. As the arena is 20m across are we not aming for half way between G and M and K and D ie the outside wheel?. Thanks Ginny | ||
| IHDTC Office Username: Ihdtcoffice Registered: 01-2003 |
TIME IS RUNNING OUT FOR ENTRIES TOMORROW WEDNESDAY 24 MARCH IS CLOSING DATE. IN THE POST THEN LET ME KNOW. Rita | ||
| Fiona Powell Username: Fionap Registered: 12-2003 |
p.s. re. stabling costs at Keysoe I understand that you can only book a stable for two or more nights... Perhaps we could organise some swapsies for those requiring stables for one or two nights using this forum? Sorry, my initial information was not sufficient! | ||
| Dilys Gordon Username: Noodle Registered: 10-2009 |
For the benefit of drivers and Precision Judges, the 15m circles in the Championship Test should be driven with the DRIVER on the quarter/three quarter line, between the markers M and G, and K an D and the vehicle's outside wheel just brushing the track near the C and A markers. I am fully aware that this is not truly a 15m circle but it never has been, even in ridden dressage. I am hoping that lots of 9's and 10's will be achieved for the straight line of the diagonal in movement 3. Should there be further queries I am away until 30th March. Dilys G | ||
| Fiona Powell Username: Fionap Registered: 12-2003 |
STABLING COSTS If you want to book a stable at Keysoe, it's £25/night/horse for the first two nights and £15 for a third night - plus £10 "clean stable" deposit (use a separate cheque) - i.e. £65 + £10 for 3 nights per pony, £50 + £10 for two nights. Hope this helps. Ask qs on 01234 708400 More blurb at www.thecollegeec.com | ||
| Fiona Powell Username: Fionap Registered: 12-2003 |
Thank you! ... I appreciate the explanations. | ||
| Dilys Gordon Username: Noodle Registered: 10-2009 |
To all those worried drivers, it isn't as bad as you think it is! I am pleased to have been given the opportunity to write this Championship test and the desired effect it is having. Many of you are questioning the 'medium walk' and the different trots......and that's all for the good of the sport. 'Medium walk' is a 'working' walk with regular steps, the horse remaining 'on the bit', the driver maintaining a steady but soft contact and the horse stepping actively forwards with purpose but not outside his natural rhythm. The hind feet should touch the ground infront of the hoof prints left by the front feet (known as 'tracking up'). The horse should remain reasonably round and not be allowed to lengthen the frame too much. 'Working trot' is what it says it is. The horse works sufficiently from behind to remain in balance whilst also working 'to the bit'. The trot must remain in rhythm but with impulsion gained by using his hocks and transferring weight to hindquarters. Endless half halts are required to assist this. 'Show some lengthened strides' is asking the horse to take longer steps by pushing more from behind but not so much as to allow him to run. It is important to show a transition in and out of this movement and this can be done by slightly shortening the steps immediately before and after both transitions so that a better difference is seen. 'Collected trot' is a higher movement and misunderstood by many drivers. IT IS NOT A SLOWING DOWN, however, the steps do become shorter but what is lost in length of step needs to be shown in elevation. Still remaining on the bit the horse takes even more weight on hocks thus freeing the forehand to be more mobile and light. Imagine Concorde taking off with all the power behind, the front end lifting and becoming light. 'Extended trot' IS NOT GOING FASTER. The trot must cover as much ground as possible, done by allowing the frame to lenthen slightly but still having a light contact to the bit. Rhythm and balance are essential to maintain and, should I be judging, I would be looking at the hindquarters to see the action of the hocks working like a well oiled machine. It is insufficient to just have 'flicky toes'. The transitions in and out of this movement need to be prepared and obvious. Well, that's it folks. I am happy to discuss/help anyone who is now even more confiused (mob. 07818 404 878). A good idea would be to find a ridden dressage competition and go along to watch the work in Novice / Elementary or above. You start to begin to understand what we're all aspiring to do and quite definitely, it's a case of 'do what I say' and not 'do what I do'. Good luck at the Championships and try and put into practice your new found knowledge - it gains higher marks if produced. Dilys G | ||
| Philippa Ellen Username: Philippae Registered: 03-2010 |
From British Dressage notes on Interpretation of Dressage Test sheets..... (with some minor editing and other plagiarised elements :-) ) Medium walk: A free, regular and unconstrained walk of moderate lengthening. The horse, remaining on the bit, walks energetically, but calmly, with even and determined steps, the hind feet touching the ground in front of the footprints of the forefeet. The [driver] maintains a light, soft and steady contact with the mouth. Collected trot: The horse, remaining on the bit, moves forward with his neck raised and arched. The hocks, being well engaged, maintain an energetic impulsion, thus enabling the shoulders to move with greater ease in any direction. The horse's steps are shorter than in the other trots, but he is lighter and more mobile. **“Many people make the mistake of thinking collected trot is slower than working trot - but this isn’t the case. It’s a more engaged trot, where the emphasis is more on the hind legs. Your horse also needs to be balanced and shifts more of his weight on to his hindquarters - so he looks like he’s working more uphill. Extended trot: The horse covers as much ground as possible. Maintaining the same cadence, he lengthens his steps to the utmost as a result of great impulsion from the hind quarters, remaining on the bit, and lengthens his frame. Fore feet should touch the ground on the spot towards where they are pointing. Movement of fore and hind legs should be similar (top of fore leg and hind cannon move parallel to each other - see Gerd Hauschmann for more info on "leg vs back movers"!) The whole movement should be well balanced and the transition to collected trot should be smoothly executed by taking more weight onto the quarters. Hope this helps and isn't too wordy, especially as they aren't my own words - I too have to explain collection to a miniature shetland using words of one syllable! I believe (sadly) that enthusiastic jogging doesn't count. Any tips from anyone on how to actually achieve this would be appreciated though! Something about lunging over trotting poles spaced slightly wider apart than your horse's natural stride, in conjunction with your verbal command to extend, seems to work as a starting point. | ||
| Fiona Powell Username: Fionap Registered: 12-2003 |
Please would someone nice and helpful and dressage-y write us a simple description of what is expected of a medium walk and also the different trots in language that a simple bunny can understand? (i.e. like me?) Thank you. | ||
| IHDTC Office Username: Ihdtcoffice Registered: 01-2003 |
Small Pony classes. You are driving the Open Test. TANDEM & TEAMS: PLEASE NOTE: You are NOT doing the one handed part of Movement 7. | ||
| Mike Watts Username: Mikew Registered: 10-2006 |
Here are diagrams for the championship tests: Open, Multiple, Intermediate, Veterans ... Junior and Novice If you spot any errors please email me with details mihdt@mikewatts.com | ||
| IHDTC Office Username: Ihdtcoffice Registered: 01-2003 |
Diagrams and tests on site very soon. PLEASE NOTE: Both circles are at the side markers of H & F not at A or C. | ||
| Amanda Valderas Username: Middletons Registered: 03-2010 |
Has anyone got a diagram dressage test for the finals? Open test 2010. Thanks and good luck everyone | ||
| Carole Redgrave Username: Caroleredgrave Registered: 12-2009 |
Anyone else got their Championship Schedule yet?? What do you think of the Dressage tests that Dilys has written for us? You can go off people you know. ( only joking Dilys- they're very good actually )It's exactly 4 weeks to go!!!!!!! Aaaaaarrgghhh |