| Author | Message | ||
     D Paffett Username: Dpaff Registered: 03-2010 |
Hello, back to work. Are we all agreed that it’s the horse’s nose that is our point of reference? I think this is what the FEI rules are saying. It seems to me that you are then committed to getting the horses nose round the circle or up the centre line or on the serpentine or halting at X “unless stated otherwise” i.e. unless specifically stated in the test or in the FEI/BHDTA/IHDTA rules. Your wheels are half of 125cm = 62.5 cm either side of your horse’s nose. So to drive a true 15m circle at H your wheels must leave the arena (at H) and that of course will incur a penalty. It is therefore physically impossible to comply with both these rules at once. I think no one in their right minds would try to leave the arena. Some people would drive their outside wheels in a 15m circle and some people could drive an egg shape where the horse’s nose would be correct everywhere except at H. The first approach is correct 0% of the time but is perfectly circular and the second approach is correct 90% of the time but is not circular. Should it be up to the judges to decide which of these versions is correct? They might only have been drafted in on the morning of the competition, which is a bit late to be making a ruling. Surely the dressage test itself should specify exactly what should be judged. If an ambiguous test has already been published then someone should make a ruling on exactly what is required. I can’t see that there is any room for imprecision in a test where half the marks are scored for precision. However, from an organiser’s point of view, two weeks before an event is not an ideal time to be discussing the theoretical basis of dressage tests and I think this also came through in the postings. | ||
| Philippa Ellen Username: Philippae Registered: 03-2010 |
Just wanted to thank the forum (and everyone who contributed to answering my pedantic questions) for the 7 separate "10"s I got for precision in the small pony class, including for the serpentine!! Shame about the paces and cones scores (I had only driven her once before Keysoe though), but all that agonizing was worth it! ;-) ps Melody's section A dun pair that I drove (badly) at Keysoe are up for sale now - please see post in For Sale & wanted section for more info, as well as one of my black shetland mares and her ginger 5 year old and 4 week old daughters, Matty and Maisie. | ||
| Mike Watts Username: Mikew Registered: 10-2006 |
I don't know if anyone is interested [if not, leave now!], but I don't think we've got to the bottom of this - specifically which bit does the 15m circle. I'd say that if the nose of the horse does a 15m circle, so will the centre of the carriage, pretty accurately (and except for any unusual carriage geometry and delayed steering if used, which would tend to make the carriage circle wider/bigger still). Any of us can check this by looking at the hoof tracks and wheel tracks from a circling turnout on a smooth surface. The hoof tracks usually fall pretty much in the middle of the two wheel tracks - I think - including on 15-20m circles. If in doubt, check it out? ..then this takes us back to the fact that if the horse's nose did a 20m circle in an indoor arena, the outside wheel would most likely leave the arena - so I'd say the dimensions i tests are nominal, not exact, and for points where this matters like whether a circle goes to the boards or stays noticeably away from them, I'd like to get it clearer another time - partly so we can get the diagrams right, mainly so it's removed as a source of disagreement. What do you think Daniel - or anyone? | ||
| Daniel Paffett Username: Dpaff Registered: 03-2010 |
Yes, I think Gary has the correct interpretation. Quote from FEI 2009 Rules (Dressage) “934.9 Transitions Changes of pace must always be made smoothly and promptly with the Horse remaining in balance and on the bit. A transition must be completed as the nose of the Horse arrives at the prescribed marker, unless otherwise stated. 934.10 Change of Pace and Movement Changes of pace and movement are made when the heads of the leaders reach the point indicated in the test.” For a team there would be a long distance between leaders’ noses and outside wheels Well done to all the Snows at Keysoe and a big thank you to Rita and her team. It was a huge event and it ran like clockwork. | ||
| Gary Snow Username: Garys Registered: 04-2010 |
Hi all,would it not be correct to use your horse/pony for the precision rather than your vehicle,surely if your horse is in the correct position then your carraige will be,if your horse is on a 15m left circle at H then its obvious that your carraige will make a slightly smaller circle,but i would of thought that this would be acceptable,the only time that i can see horse and carraige making joint precision is in a straight line,or a 20m circle driven at 40mph.I think its a great test and should be enjoyed and driven with a smile,i will be if i remember where to go, YAHOO !!! | ||
| Daniel Paffett Username: Dpaff Registered: 03-2010 |
Yes, you have missed something. Several things are missing I would say. I had a query about the P&P test and somebody suggested I ask on the forum. My question (“what will the judges be looking for?”) was not answered. I think it’s a fair question if as you claim precision=accuracy. I was not the only one to ask. I was not expecting direct abuse for asking a question but I can see I was wasting my time. Might see you at Keysoe. We will be the ones doing the 2011 test. | ||
| IHDTC Office Username: Ihdtcoffice Registered: 01-2003 |
Mr Paffett seems to have a lot to say about IHDT P&P at the Championships. Unless I have missed something Mr Paffett is not driving at the Championships and is not a member of IHDT UK!! As I stated in the earlier posting, the P&P test has been worded as per FEI Driven and BHDTA Driven Tests. If anyone has a problem with this then perhaps they should address the subject to those organisations who have been running Horse Driving Trials since the year dot. Rita Bundock IHDT UK Secretary | ||
| Daniel Paffett Username: Dpaff Registered: 03-2010 |
There is no carriage in ridden dressage and it’s the width of the carriage that causes all the problems so I agree with Barry on that point. But driven is different. I’m having a problem with Rita’s definition. By my calculations, if you drive EQUAL semicircles in a carriage of width 125cm you will cross the centre line 83.3cm short of “I” and 83.3cm past “L”. The centre of your vehicle will not pass over these points and the diagrams would be wrong. In old money this is about 2 foot seven inches so quite noticeable. So is this what will be judged or is it the diagram? | ||
| Barry Marshall Username: Barrym Registered: 03-2010 |
Dear Dilys I never for one moment said that your test writing skills were inadequate but I stand by my statement that you were totally incorrect to state that in ridden dressage 15m circles are not ridden as true circles. Also you are incorrect to use the term working walk as it does not exist, of course you can ask for medium walk if you wish to do so | ||
| Rita Bundock Username: Roanmare Registered: 11-2007 |
This is getting to technical - the way the writen word is taken by different people puts different meaning on to the words. The way in which this test has been writen down is the same way as FEI tests are writen for the BHDTA - if it is good enough for FEI competitors to read and understand why can't IHDT competitors understand the same language? When a movement is a serpentine it is discribed: 3 loop serpentine-loops of equal size. Only in Test 10 is the quarter line introduced. I can't find any reference in the BHDTA/FEI Rule Book about the place of measurement is taken from. Only that transitions must be completed as the nose of the horse arrives at the prescribed marker, unless otherwise stated. Circles are discribed: 20m circle to the left. Perhaps reading Driven Dressage with the single horse by Sandy Rabinowitz would answer most questions. Good book well worth finding a copy. | ||
| Dilys Gordon Username: Noodle Registered: 10-2009 |
Daniel, thanks for taking the time and for your good explanations on how this test should be driven. I have been out of the country. My understanding in driven dressage is that wherever possible, it is the driver who is on the marker not the outside wheel, therefore in the 15m circle the outside wheel will touch the track in two places (one on the short side and once on the long side) but it will be the driver who touches the 3/4 line. I agree this is not a true 15m circle as the driver will be half the width of the vehicle in from the long side, plus whatever allowance is made for not driving over the arena marking boards. In the serpentine, it has to be the driver again who is the precision marker. You cannot mark the outside wheel for the first loop because it would then have to join up with the new outside wheel for the next loop and there would be a discrepancy of the width of the vehicle. To answer Barry's concerns of my inadequacies in writing a test, the proof that I sent to Dick had the usual wording re the serpentine...'3 loops of equal size, each loop to go to the side of the arena'. I suspect it was thought to be too long winded and reduced by them to fit the page, not by me. Also, it was my suggestion that Intermediates did the Novice test but that is not now the case. I wasn't aware that my test had been chosen until it was in print. With regards to the explanations of various paces ie Medium Walk. Sorry, but I feel it is perfectly acceptable to call it 'Medium Walk' and then to describe it in the way I did by saying it is a 'working' walk and then giving the definition. It gives the impression of being business like and positively forwards. My intention with this test was that it is attainable but drivers have questions to be asked within their training. Despite all this on the Forum, I have had some very pleasing responses and I wish everyone success and a sense of achievement. | ||
| Fiona Powell Username: Fionap Registered: 12-2003 |
Daniel, I had to read this a few times however I hope I have now understood your astonishing calculations - which I have found helpful! Thank you. The big q is, what are the judges looking for? (and it's thanks to Philippa - not me - for the original deep-thinking q!) | ||
| Daniel Paffett Username: Dpaff Registered: 03-2010 |
This is a follow-on to Fiona’s post in the Championship thread. I’ve put it in a separate post in case the “yawn, yawn yawn” brigade take umbrage. I wouldn’t even claim to be an expert in this area so If you really hate nit-picking or amateurs’ opinions you should hit the back-space button NOW! Still here? ok 3 loop Serpentine Step 6 ... Distance between “I” and boards at “C” = diameter of semicircle =16.67m (=1/3 of 50m) Therefore straight sections over “I” and “L” =(20m-16.67m)=3.33m. Also, first semicircle begins 1.67m after “C” and last semicircle ends 1.67m before “A” Whether there is always a straight bit on a serpentine loop will depend on the number of loops and dimensions of the arena but I think in most cases there would be. I cannot tell from the diagrams whether a straight bit has been drawn in at “C”, “A”, “I” and “L” for these particular tests. It seems clear that the outside wheels must go close to the boards at “C”, ”H”, ”B”, ”K” and “A”, and that the centre-line of the vehicle must bisect ”I” and “L”. The width of the turnout is 1.25m. So at the highest level of precision, none of the loops will be true semicircles and the middle loop will be 62.5 cm smaller than the outside loops. At a lower level of precision you could call them equal semicircles. I think Rita would argue that a difference of 2 feet is nit-picking and I would agree (unless it was 2 feet wide of “X”!) . What Dilys said was that the figures are not truly circular and I would certainly agree with that also. I am a little hesitant to follow Mike’s view that the diagrams override everything partly because the organiser appears to have contradicted that in her last post (“precision=accuracy”) and partly because I thought in ridden dressage the words were the definitive version, not the diagram. (Also my printout of the diagram is very slightly not to scale!) At any rate I don’t think we should criticise the author of the test for this. The problem is due to the width of the carriage and has been noticed years ago (and presumably ignored ever since) - see “Driving & Judging Dressage” by HRH, 1996 ... page 21 for circles which cross the centre-line and cannot be circular and page 50 on serpentines, which cannot have equal loops. I can also see it is exasperating for the poor organiser who surely has more pressing worries at this time. But, personally, I think I would like to know to the nearest centimetre where I should be going even though I know I won’t achieve that in practice. I would also like to know how I can tell whether my pony is achieving the desired paces even if my pony can’t! And certainly I would like to have fun – but in an enlightened way. The worst thing is to lose out because you don’t know the rules. And surely it does no harm to ask? So having sorted out the maths and the bibliography we come back to Fiona’s question of what will the judges expect to see? |