| Author | Message | ||
     Alan Hodges Username: Alan Registered: 10-2006 |
Quite right Caroline, anything can be proved by being selective. I can see some advantage in consolidating horses and ponies (it means fewer rosettes), but in multiples there should be seperate classes at qualifiers for two rein and four rein turnouts be they horses, ponies or small ponies. | ||
| Caroline Young Username: Caroliney Registered: 01-2011 |
I have a couple of thoughts to add to this debate. The first is that comparing the scoring from combined and separate classes can give any result you would like as you can add as many other people in the combined class as you like. To counter Rita's example I will give a simple example but try it yourself and you will see you can get any result you want if you are prepare to image enough horse lorry breakdowns, lame horses, drivers who also work and get ill. Driver A always beats drivers B by as big a margin as you wish to image. However they drive horse pairs and there are three good pony pairs too. For the first five events all 5 pairs are there and drivers A and B are 4th and 5th. By the sixth event the pony pairs have sorted out qualification and for a number of reasons do not attend. Driver A is also unable to make the final event for whatever reason you care to choose. Combined events Driver A 5,5,5,5,5,(0) = 25 Driver B 4,4,4,4,(4),10 = 26 Separate events Driver A 10,10,10,10,10,(0) = 50 Driver B 8, 8, 8,8,(8),10 = 42 My second thought is this. At our last event we had more pairs than intermediate or open singles. If horses and ponies are to be combined as it gives 'fairer' qualification I don't see anything in Rita's example that means the comptitors had to be pairs. Would it make sense to have the same combined pony and horse rule in all categories? | ||
| Martin Yemm Username: Martiny Registered: 09-2011 |
I have to agree with Alan. Rule 3.1.3 and 10.4 are quite specific when 3.1.3 states - Classes 5 and 6 will be combined at qualifiers but will be separate at the finals and 10.4 states - In combined classes, points will be awarded separately to both classes. Perhaps the wording could be improved, but I don't think there can be any doubt as to the meaning. Surely we should not change rules half way through the season. If they are causing inequalities then they should be looked into for the 2012/2013 season. | ||
| Jackie Ellis Username: Jackieellis Registered: 01-2009 |
OK OK, You've completely lost me now Rita! I bow to your superior intelect!!!!!!!!!!! | ||
| Alan Hodges Username: Alan Registered: 10-2006 |
Rita, your essay has further confused the issue as it has no conclusion. Am I right in my belief that the existing rules 3.1.3 and 10.4 are to be complied with for the 2011/12 season. Thanks | ||
| IHDTC Office Username: Ihdtcoffice Registered: 01-2003 |
All scores and points are recorded from each event and are refered to when qualification is being processed. Some competitors mis out of Q points by a very small margin and all this information is taken into consideration. With a possible 360 competitors qualifying from all the areas we need the best, for surely only the very best should qualify for the NATIONAL Championships. Tandems I stand corrected by Dick Carey. In the past tandems were an invited class but not so this year. To throw another spanner in the works, just think about the SCENARIO below, which HAS happened in the past. Event 1. A Tandem or horse pair get 10 Qualifying points in a combined multi class as the highest within their designated class but their actual event score is 345 and were last in the combined class. Event 2, Competitor 1 compete again, bit better this time only get a score of 298 and finish 6th in the combined class. Q points 8. Also in the same class another competitor (2) finished 3rd on a score of 195 = Q points 10. Event 3. Same thing happens again. Competitor 1, gets 8 Q points from being second in the designated class with a score of 301 and finishing 7th in the combined class. Competitor 2, finishes 4th in the combined class on a score of 206.5 and so gets 10 Q points. Event 4. Competitor 1 finishes last again with a score of 354 but is still first in their designated class so collects another 10 Q points. Sadly competitor 2 has a transport problem and does not make the event. Event 5. Competitor 1 Gets eliminated and so scores 0 and no Q points Competitor 2. finishes 5th but gets another 10 Q points. If Q points are done as a COMBINED class Competitor 1 .. Competitor 2 Event Score Place - Q points . Score Place - Q points 1 .. 345 ....last 0 .......... 0 .0 0 2 ..298 6th ..3 ........... 195 ..3rd 6 3 ..301 7th ..0 .......... .206.5 ..4th ..5 4 .354 last .0 ............ 0 .0 ..0 5 ..0 0 0 .......... .. ..202.5 5th .4 Less worst score of 0 .TOTAL 3 Less worst score of 4 .....TOTAL 11 If the points are done as a DESIGNATED class Competitor 1 Competitor 2 Event .Score Place Q points .. Score .. Place Q points 1 .. 345 .. last ...........10 0 . 0 .. 0 2 .. 298 6th 8 .......... . 195 . 3rd 10 3 .. 301 7th 8 ............... .206.5 4th 10 4 354 .. last ..10.......... . 0 .. 0 0.. 5 0 .. 0 .. 0 .............. .. 202 .. 5th ..10 Less worst score of 8 TOTAL 28.......... Less worst score of 10 TOTAL 20 Under the combined class Points; Competitor 2 qualifies as being the better competitor. Under Designated class Points, Competitor 1 qualifies as having the most points but in fact is the worst competitor. Is this fair? I am sorry the table is not displayed exactly but follow it through please. Or Email me for a better table. rita@ihdt.co.uk | ||
| Jackie Ellis Username: Jackieellis Registered: 01-2009 |
Sorry Rita, that still dosnt make it fair, because of the different amount of entrants each time will affect the amount of points. The only fair way as i see it is to do what the rules say. | ||
| Alan Hodges Username: Alan Registered: 10-2006 |
Thanks for a definitive answer BUT this appears to conflict with the current rules. 3.1.3 Classes 5 and 6 will be combined at qualifiers but will be separate at the finals. 10.4 In combined classes, points will be awarded separately to both classes. | ||
| Deirdre Luff Username: Pinkpink Registered: 01-2010 |
If a tandem wins the Multipul class can they still only come to the championships by invite? Tandems pay the same entry fee as other classes but we have to be 'grateful' for an invite! Regularly with 3 horses in a class, 1 novice, 1 intermediate, 1 open, they all get a first place and 10 points. I know tandem drivers must be certifiable, but discrimination on the grounds of mental health is againt the law. Why are we are to be treated as a sub-class? | ||
| IHDTC Office Username: Ihdtcoffice Registered: 01-2003 |
To answer the questions on this thread with regard to the Multiples Points table. Last years results/Points League have absolutely no bearing on this seasons Points League. In the notes column, it states the class of the competitor. i.e.: pony pair horse pair tandem team. Points are allocated according to finishing place within the Multiples class. It will be the competitor with the highest number of points less the worse event points (4 count out of 5 events, etc.) that will qualify in each of the 4 classes that make up the Multiples class. So really it does not matter how many points you get as long as it is the most within your class. Tandems & Teams are Invitation Classes for the Championships. | ||
| Alan Hodges Username: Alan Registered: 10-2006 |
As this thread has been going on for a while now is it possible that Rita B or Mike W could provide a definitive answer to the points raised please? Thanks in anticipation. | ||
| Helen Hughes Username: Helenh Registered: 09-2010 |
Last season at Royal leisure 6-11-2010 Nigel Chandler was 4th in the combined multiples class with a horsepair but nevertheless earned 10 points.!! Jo Crouch (pony pair) who was the class winner also had 10 points. Tina Graham (ponytandem and second in the combined class) also had 10 points. This is an event that is run by Rita!! | ||
| James Binns Username: Jamesb Registered: 12-2008 |
Check with Rita, I believe she will say that the Tandem class is By Invitation only!! | ||
| Helen Hughes Username: Helenh Registered: 09-2010 |
Thank goodness we are completing for fun and not to qualify as I am rather confused! | ||
| Alan Hodges Username: Alan Registered: 10-2006 |
OK so if we compete in a large multiples class which is really a pony pairs class with a tandem put there because there is nowhere else. And assuming that all the pony pairs will generally outperform a small pony tandem, how will the tandem qualify for the finals when no points are ever earned? | ||
| James Binns Username: Jamesb Registered: 12-2008 |
My understanding of this is, that at area events it is called the multiple class (all multiples) this is placed as 1 class 1st, 2nd ect. Only at the finals are there individual classes for the multiples. See rule: 10.4 In combined classes, points will be awarded separately to both classes. | ||
| Alan Hodges Username: Alan Registered: 10-2006 |
Interesting Faye, I hadn't noticed that. I will bring this up with the organisers when we compete next week. So in a combined multiples class comprising a pony pair, a horse pair, a small pony pair, a veteran driver, a tandem and a team everyone would get 10 points and a first place rosette. | ||
| Faye Taylor Username: Fayet Registered: 10-2008 |
if you look on the Events page on this web site below the section where it says event information, it states on there that points are allocated for the points league as though it is a separate class so i don't think the points league tally is correct for most areas | ||
| Helen Hughes Username: Helenh Registered: 09-2010 |
Hi Jackie, it was our first attempt at pairs last week also & we enjoyed it! Is the points allocation the same in different areas? If you look at the Sussex (now South East) area league points for 2010/11 it seems that they split multiples somehow. Maybe someone can enlighten us? | ||
| Alan Hodges Username: Alan Registered: 10-2006 |
Is it fair? I guess you are saying its not and I tend to agree with that. My wife drives a small pony tandem and however many times she says that competing is all about having fun with the ponies I think its a shame that it is possible, and it has happened, that she can win the tandem class and not even get a rosette for 6th place. Also because different areas vary quite a lot in their interpretation of how to manage things, a person competing in area A can finish the season with a large points tally while a competitor in area B can achieve a better performance and end up the winner but with a tiny points score. Still enjoy playing with the ponies though. | ||
| Jackie Ellis Username: Jackieellis Registered: 01-2009 |
Not having competed a multiple indoors before i have not taken any notice of the allocation of points, so just wondering why in a mixed class of Pony Pair, Horse Pair & Tandems, the points for the highest placed of each type are not given as 10 for the highest of each? ie; highest placed Horse Pair at Merrist Wood this weekend was 4th beaten by all the Pony Pairs (SOAS Shettys!!) & only given 5 points. Is this fair? |