| Author | Message | ||
     Nicolette Hughes Username: Nicolettepurple Registered: 03-2010 |
I am really dissapointed that despite several of us here voicing our concern and numerous others being heard in the spectators area vocalising their upset over the whip / yanking issues. It just appears that exactly the same cruel behaviour will continue next year .... | ||
| Daniel Snow Username: Snowd Registered: 02-2012 |
Tara, not many people have posted to this thread and those that have seem to be relatively new. Perhaps only the children see that the emperor has no clothes. At any rate nobody has posted to say that the whip is NOT being used excessively so I should count an embarrassed silence as a moral victory. What I said is that at high speeds a lot of whacking goes on. Looking back through the other posts I also see mention of “yanking”. That is also a terrible thing and I have no idea how you deal with that. The problem is not restricted to inexperienced drivers. In some of the classes you have to do it to win. I am not going to name names because it is perfectly legal if the judges let you get away with it. I just find it unpleasant to watch. Perhaps when I am an experienced horsey person it will look ok. I watched a Boyd Exel demo the other day. He said “You use your whip to move your horses sideways. You never use it to make them go faster.” I hope this thread raises awareness about whip use. I hope when we see drivers whacking their horses round to victory at next year’s finals that a few more of us can reflect on exactly how hard you have to whip a horse for it to be deemed “excessive”. Your other question was how we managed to complete the course with a snagged rein. Driving a pair the effect of the reins is shared between the ponies. Because it was the coupling rein that was snagged and not the direct rein the effect was further muddied. This was Fleur’s first time at Keysoe with this pair. However, it was not their first time and they had been saving up a special Keysoe gear that we had not seen in the regionals. Whatever people think they saw we had the slowest times and a ball down on the second day when we had the problem. I didn’t notice the snagged rein until we were outside. If I had been doing my job properly I should have checked just before we went in. Live and learn. | ||
| Tara Hill Username: Tarahill Registered: 05-2009 |
Danny - did you really mean to write "you have to whack it" in one of your postings? I think the whole point to this thread is that people would rather not have a horse 'whacked'... With regard to a further comment from Danny, which I think highlights an area that also could potentially be improved upon - "As for your vivid recollection, Martin, what you actually saw was what happens if you go into the arena with a coupling rein snagged round its bit. Without adequate steering from the reins the “junior” could only turn the carriage by making the outside pony go faster. More self-preservation than trying to win at that stage I can assure you." - May I ask why, when it was realised that the coupling rein had got snagged, the turnout didn't pull up and rectify the situation, as I had to during this years finals when I noticed that my rein had got caught around my shaft end? It cost me dearly in time faults (dropping me from 3rd to last place), but it was the safest thing for my turnout (and for the safety of those around me) to do. I'd also like to bring up the comment Danny made "Nobody even came up to see if something was wrong. In fact none of the “simple” checks and balances that you want to rely on actually happened." I wanted to highlight this as, when watching the video back, it was apparent that my rein had gotten caught within Obstacle 1 and because we were travelling anticlockwise it didn't effect the pony until we got into Obstable 2 when a lack of steering showed up. Unfortunately, no one (despite the number of people within the arena) stopped us prior to starting the second obstacle. In my humble opinion, I think it would be prudent that all standing grooms (for small ponies) be stood with the timing equipment (rather against the back wall near the canteen) and I also think it prudent that there be an obstacle judge to check for any harness malfunctions and with the authority to pull up turnouts before they start an obstacle to ensure safety is maintained at all times. p.s. Sorry Danny, the above isn't having a go at you personally - some of the items that you wrote have good points to them. | ||
| Daniel Snow Username: Snowd Registered: 02-2012 |
As for your vivid recollection, Martin, what you actually saw was what happens if you go into the arena with a coupling rein snagged round its bit. Without adequate steering from the reins the “junior” could only turn the carriage by making the outside pony go faster. More self-preservation than trying to win at that stage I can assure you. However, it does raise an important point. Here we have an incident where you saw a lot of “slapping each pony on the backside all the way round the obstacles” but you (and a packed audience) did nothing. The driver came out of the ring and there was no “quiet word” and no mention of elimination. Nobody even came up to see if something was wrong. In fact none of the “simple” checks and balances that you want to rely on actually happened. The reason is that this style of driving is not unusual at the Keysoe finals. Judges, stewards and driving people are used to looking the other way. This gets us back to the original post that there is a lot of excessive whipping and slapping going on at the finals and no action is being taken or will be taken under the current rules. I do see the odd competitor guiding their horse round with the lightest of touches but they don’t often win. You also “doubt if ponies feel any real pain [from excessive whipping] , more an irritant.” Is there any scientific basis to that statement? Why do ponies shoot forward when you hit them hard on the backside? I agree that whips should be carried for safety. I have no problem with them staying in the whipholder as long as they are easily accessible. The fact remains, however, that any driver who can get round an obstacle without using a whip is a better driver or has a better pony (or both) than the driver that can’t. They should be rewarded not disadvantaged. Under my suggestion people can use their whips if they want to (or have to) but if they don't they get a 5 second bonus. | ||
| Daniel Snow Username: Snowd Registered: 02-2012 |
Also, my suggestion was for inside the obstacles only. There is no points advantage to excessively whipping your horse out in the exercise arena. | ||
| Daniel Snow Username: Snowd Registered: 02-2012 |
Hi Martin. The threat of elimination has been there since 2002. How many times has it been used? Also, it is horsey people that opened this thread and it looks bad to them. I shudder to think how it looks to non-horsey people. In the 2011 Grand National there were more complaints about whip use than about the horses that died. | ||
| Martin Pink Username: Martinpink Registered: 09-2008 |
Unfortunately I was not present at last years Finals so cannot comment on that event; however at a previous final I vividly recall one junior driving a pair, alternate between slapping each pony on the backside all the way round the obstacles. I doubt they felt any real pain , more an irritant ,and it can't have helped her contact or times, but it would have looked very cruel to a non Horsey spectator. I would be more than happy to drive without a whip in the obstacles my Pony knows what red & white boards mean & loves to show off his trot, however outside the arena I wouldn't be so keen, far too many hazards (puddles , badly parked cars, lorrys & carriages)too risk driving without all AIDS AVAILABLE. Seems simple to me, rather than come up with new rules or do away with a vital aid (i.e. Whip), if someone is seen abusing their equine, point it out to an organiser, they can have quiet word ,if that doesn't work have them eliminated from that competition. | ||
| Stef Nuttall Username: Stefn Registered: 08-2013 |
Some years back, I was competing in the northwest. I was given 5 penalty points because I left my whip in the whip holder. the tones of my voice can speed up or slow down my ponies. They don't need a whip to make them go faster through an obstacle. At the same event another driver constantly used the whip on their ponies but it had no effect on making them go any faster. nothing was said to them | ||
| Danny Snow Username: Snowd Registered: 02-2012 |
I agree that a gentle touch is ok and a savage slap isn’t. I also agree that you need to carry a whip for safety or to counter disobedience. But is it better to accept a penalty when you are training or to encourage drivers to win with savage slaps? At full obstacle speeds it is very difficult to gently caress a pony round the sharp bends. You have to whack it quickly and hard – whether you are making it go faster or steering it. A horse can feel a fly crawling up its flank but it can’t cry out in pain. I also agree that this is primarily a problem at the finals. The regional organisers can be more flexible and have a “quiet word” to nip this sort of thing in the bud. However, I assumed most people would want to do their regional competitions under the same rules as the finals. For a lot of us it would be a difficult rule to get used to. But why not look at it this way – anyone can use a whip but you get a five point bonus if you get through an obstacle without using it. Surely it is something that is worth rewarding. | ||
| Angela Cherrington Username: Angelac Registered: 10-2003 |
I'm not sure if you have been talking mostly about finals or all competitions. I have a 5 year old who is just learning the game. She likes the job and we enter small competitions and go slowly. She has a tendency to fall in on the right rein but can be encouraged to bend correctly with careful rein and voice aids a very light touch of the whip (of a strength only just felt by a human bare arm) in an appropriate place. (I was taught to do this by a UKCC coach). To say I cannot use a whip at all would be detrimental to her training and less safe. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Just penalise those who abuse. Whips of themselves are not cruel, it depends what you do with them. Just my 2 pennyworth. | ||
| Danny Snow Username: Snowd Registered: 02-2012 |
... so if over-use of whip gives an advantage why not allow the whip but take that advantage away? Something that is easy to police and will act as a deterrent. What about a five point penalty if you use your whip in the obstacle? Have the whip there for emergencies and training but learn how to steer and encourage without it. Twenty points for using the whip in all four obstacles would be quite a disincentive. So all the judge needs to decide is was the whip used or not. | ||
| Emma Bush Username: Emmab Registered: 05-2013 |
I think that it is important that drivers are educated in ways in which they are able to encourage animals to go forwards without the use of the whip. I think that it is important especially with those who have gone from an experienced animal to one which is not so experienced, that they do not over use the whip to encourage forward movement, but they learn proper driving methods to encourage a faster speed. I think that there should be a limit as to how many times a driver can use the whip in a obstacle and how it is used but I also think that it is important that stewards are respected in their decisions about what is or isn't appropriate. In many cases I feel that stewards are looked down on by competitors and they do not receive the respect that they deserve for giving up their own time to help. I think that there needs to be a level of respect between competitor and steward, as well as between horse and rider - if the horse loved what it was doing, particularly in the obstacle phase, then it would not need to be pressured into going faster and if it is not going 'fast' then there is probably a reason that it isn't and this should be looked further into, rather than ignoring what the horse is telling you and making it do what you want. | ||
| Danny Snow Username: Snowd Registered: 02-2012 |
Rita, I think we agree on what the obstacles should look like. But that’s not how they actually look. I hope that you and your review team have access to the videos so that you can see for yourselves. What I think you will see is rather a lot of drivers pushing their ponies round the obstacles with big sticks and a lot of yanking. I know I’m not the only person that sees it this way. I know people who cannot even bear to go in and watch the obstacles. The Saturday night arena challenge format is even worse. Currently, the obstacles competition does not just permit this poor driving, it actually forces drivers into it. Look at the speeds they are doing weaving through the obstacles. You really don’t have enough time for finesse with the whip. A quick jab and you are already onto the next bend. And you have to keep jabbing and slapping to be as fast as the others. The indoor finals are the biggest and probably the highest profile UK driving event of the year. A major attack was launched on whip use in horse racing in 2011 and it seems a fair bet that other disciplines will also be coming under scrutiny. This would be a really good time to make indoor driving squeaky clean. It is no good saying that you are not hurting the horses if it looks to the world like you are really beating them up. And what would happen if you stopped them from using their whips in the obstacles? They would be more reliant on voice aids, more careful with the steering, more interested in correct bend to turn and getting the weight off the forehand so that they can steer. All good things. | ||
| Rita Bundock Username: Roanmare Registered: 11-2007 |
Danny, I think you missed the point I was trying to make. Education in the art of driving is sadly missing in some competitors, if the driver has a good basic knowledge of the skills required for driving properly then it follows that the horse will be driven properly and in a happy,forward going manner, thus eliminating the use of the whip at all as it will understand all the commands of voice and hands. Just look at the Young Drivers that are getting a good education from the leading drivers of today. They are the future and they are getting educated and it shows. (What a shame that one handed coaching style of driving is not being taught so much now) I saw very little at Keysoe in the way of competition, I did see one competitor that appeared from the gallery to be using the whip with some intent but I was told by someone in the arena that in fact the lash was not touching the pony at all! but that was just one. Believe me I personally will do everything possible to prevent any form of abuse. Here, in the 'var/www' area, we address any 'incidents' if it be whip, hands, shouting or anything else that affects the driving animal, perhaps other area organisers should take the bull by the horns and do the same but in a advisory and very tactful way, AND IT WORKS! The aim is for everone to have fun with their driving but it must also be fun for the animal being driven as well. The Rules are reviewed every year, the rule on whips/abuse will be addressed during the review. | ||
| Danny Snow Username: Snowd Registered: 02-2012 |
“if cruelty from whip abuse happened at the Finals then there should have been visible signs” I’m not a vet but is that a true statement? Perhaps we have different ideas of cruelty. To me, cruelty is causing unnecessary pain or distress. You have put this statement in the “personal bit” but I would be very concerned if this was also the official IHDT line. I know you have to be very careful what you say as an organiser but it does seem to me that we are all understanding different things from terms such as “cruelty” and “excessive whip use” so it would be helpful to define our terms. | ||
| Nicolette Hughes Username: Nicolettepurple Registered: 03-2010 |
Perhaps stewards and judges need training as to what is and isn't acceptable in terms of whipping. My daughters used the whip to help encourage ponies not to fall in etc.. so I am not sure if a total ban is the right way to go. It was however very clear who was using the whip to repeatedly hit the horse / pony to make it go faster, these "hits" could be heard in the noisy audience, if it was a "legal" whip usage, we wouldn't hear it. Yes you would see marks / whelts from over use of the whip but I am guessing they are not going to "beat" them with all of us watching but what we did see was still too much. Maybe we should have a yellow / red card system where after an obstacle if it was considered too much whip usage they could be shown the card. If they did it again, red card means elimination. All obstacles were video'd I think, perhaps we could show an RSPCA officer or horse welfare officer and see what they consider ok? Perhaps we could have a rule that says something like: " a whip may be used to aid driving in a technical way but not for hitting the horse to make it go faster". It would need much better wording.We have to do something! Also if a spectator witnesses cruelty in the lorry park or stable, yes inform an official but if we witness it in front of a crowd and officials, we shouldn't need to. We owe it to the animals to do something. I'm feeling frustrated about it all! Horse racing is a much more difficult issue because there are large sums of money involved, so people are less likely to change, we don't have money clouding the issue so that means we can do what's right! | ||
| Rita Bundock Username: Roanmare Registered: 11-2007 |
This my personal view! Keep this thread going. Sooner or later someone will come up with: if the animal is correctly schooled - going forward - balanced - then the use of the whip will not be required. The lack of understanding of the basic schooling requirements is wide spread,- proof required? The young drivers are getting the training and the understanding of driving corrrectly which does not put too much strain on the animal - why? because it is driven correctly and going forward & balanced, therefore responsive to the drivers wishes (going faster when asked by voice and hands not the whip useage) therefore eliminating the use of the whip to make the animal go faster for 90% of the time, but then the excitement of the moment can and does take over. Just a quick observation made from the presentation of awards. Not one horse or pony had signs of whip abuse - no marks were visable on any animal and if cruelty from whip abuse happened at the Finals then there should have been visable signs. Just as a matter of interest one spectator thought the Saturday evening Inter area challenge was cruel and should not have taken place. Now this is the official bit. If anyone witnesses any form of cruelty from anyone at a competition it is their responsibility to inform the organisers at the time of the incident. | ||
| Danny Snow Username: Snowd Registered: 02-2012 |
The Horse Racing Authority is in a complete mess over whip use. The whip count rule was dropped because too many jockeys couldn’t manage it. The RSPCA would like to see whips completely banned in horse racing except where the safety of horse or rider is at stake. Not a good role model. In principle it has been possible to eliminate indoor drivers for excessive whip use since 2002. I’m betting that since that time not one driver has been eliminated. Nobody wants to accuse another driver of cruelty and yet nobody is denying that it is happening. Also, it is easy to tell the difference between a gentle caress and a hard slap when you are up in the stands but judges will be presented with every shade of grey in between and big arguments for every decision. If you want to stop the whip abuse you probably will have to ban the whip. Since we have been attending the National Indoor Championships the obstacles have been getting tighter and tighter. I presume this is an attempt to slow people down. To some extent it is working but the yanking and whipping has become even more profitable as a strategy – and painful to watch. If whips were banned drivers could not go so fast and the obstacles could be more flowing again. I think you need a whip for safety if there is a danger of your horse going backwards or rearing. Perhaps you should allow the whip to be carried in the hand or in the whip-holder but give a penalty if it needs to be used in the obstacle. That way you can use the whip if you have to but you will not win the obstacle. It is essential to remove the connection between whip and winning. The winners will be the ones with the best communication between horse and driver. | ||
| Erin Santoro Username: Erinm Registered: 02-2009 |
I think an all out ban would be slightly extreme as used in the right way Whips aren't a weapon they have limits in racing on the use of whips I think they aren't aloud to use them more than 4 times maybe they should do something like that in this sport. You can tell the ones using them correctly and the ones abusing them after all A whip is an extension of your leg not for beating them with. | ||
| Ginny White Username: Ginnyw Registered: 11-2006 |
I also witnessed a few whipping sessions! the problem will always be what is too much, i am guilty of galloping in!mostly knowing where A is! (I think you have to have a bit of yee ha for the crowd!) and my pony has a big trot I tend to use a short whip for bum directions although know i don't really need one at all as Jack seems to love the obstacles, a whip ban indoor (at finals?) would solve the problem and sure would not cause any danger in such a controlled situation. Everyone can get carried away in excitement but still no excuse for cruelty. Lets see if I finish another thread hee hee. | ||
| Dean Shelton Username: Deans Registered: 03-2009 |
....silence from the Office | ||
| Martin Pink Username: Martinpink Registered: 09-2008 |
These Top drivers prove FAST can be ELEGANT at a recent Windsor Park Event , whips were only carried for the ride. https://youtu.be/stTGVcnTunk https://youtu.be/JHDOujSAVsg | ||
| Alan Hodges Username: Alan Registered: 10-2006 |
Now that it is no longer a requirement to carry, and inevitably use, a whip in the obstacles why not fast track things and get rid of it altogether. We all know the ‘old guard’ will say it’s impossible to control an animal without one but we also know that with proper training this is not the case. Other equestrian sports are heading in this direction so we could lead the way for once. Unless something is done about this matter and a level playing field is the subject of legislation, competitors who are willing to abuse their animals will generally get a faster performance than those who believe that whipping a horse is a totally unacceptable behaviour. This has to be wrong. | ||
| Danny Snow Username: Snowd Registered: 02-2012 |
Inflict pain to go faster. Inflict pain and yank hard on the inside rein to turn. Inflict pain and yank hard on both reins because you need to go in at maximum speed and then stop for a tight turn. It shouldn’t be like this. It should be fast and elegant not fast and furious. | ||
| Dean Shelton Username: Deans Registered: 03-2009 |
From the spectator area, I watched 1 competitor whip the pony every stride it took from gate F to the finish. I also overheard some spectators who were walking (presumably var/www, so were local?) commenting how the ponies, "were being whipped when they were already clearly giving their all". This is one of the reasons why I thought a thread on the subject was necessary. I hope this discussion leads to proper vigilance. This may be an uncomfortable subject for some, too bad! | ||
| Nicolette Hughes Username: Nicolettepurple Registered: 03-2010 |
Clearly something must be done. Is there an official view on this please? | ||
| Helen Bridges Username: Helenb Registered: 08-2011 |
just to put my penny worth in! the thing i hate the most is over zealous drivers going flat -out into an obs.then pulling up HARD cos they don't know where they are going,a good working trot will get you there just as fast and you won't "stall" which costs much more time.dont forget-you have walked the obstacle-the horse hasn't ! | ||
| Danny Snow Username: Snowd Registered: 02-2012 |
The problem IS widespread. Used in this way a whip can reduce your obstacle time by 5 seconds or more. That’s twenty seconds of edge over your opponents. It’s a huge incentive in classes like Open pony and Senior junior. Excessive use of whip comes under the heading of “Cruelty” under FEI and BHDTA rules. Stewards are required to report it and the penalty is disqualification. The BHDTA warned drivers about it at Windsor this year and are trying to stamp it out. The IHDT warned that they would eliminate drivers for excessive whip use as early as 2002. This year all of the obstacles were recorded and many will be put up on youtube and facebook. This will allow the general horsey public to make its own judgement. Even if they don’t, the news will eventually filter to the FEI who are taking quite an interest in non-FEI competitions. It is also a shame to see it popping up in the junior classes. Is this the future of British Carriagedriving? Something must be done. Warnings have failed. Even in these posts we are trying to make excuses for it. If you don’t think it’s “excessive” that’s fair enough but if you do then it’s cruelty – ask the BHDTA. | ||
| Nicolette Hughes Username: Nicolettepurple Registered: 03-2010 |
Quite agree with dean and goldie, I heard people talking about this issue Saturday night and during obstacles. I was really disappointed that the horses and ponies had to endure such treatment. They can only go as fast as they can go.... I would like to see a focus on this next year and perhaps a reminder to all competitors in their pre - event paperwork that excessive yanking and whip use will lead to a warning / elimination and possibly a future ban. If it goes unchecked it could become more widespread... This is a welfare issue after all. | ||
| Goldie Francis Username: Goldief Registered: 03-2013 |
Well said. It did not go unnoticed during the Challenge on Saturday night. It was exciting and great fun, but also wincing to see yanking and whip happies. Too much loose adrenalin, perhaps. | ||
| Dean Shelton Username: Deans Registered: 03-2009 |
Spectacularly-well organised event. Thank you to all involved, BUT, was I the only one at the Finals who thought there were far too many competitors over-using the whip in the obstacles? Nothing appeared to have been said at the time about it by the many officials watching. Most of the horses/ponies were giving their all and still getting thumped. Appalling advert for our superb sport.... |