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Martyn Willis
Username: Martynw
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, 25 October, 2007 - 09:14 pm: | |
Welcome to the sport.
In driving precision is marked on the horses nose being on the marker (unless specified to the contry), unlike in ridden dressage where it is on the rider. As someone who "Works" at indoor events if you have any queary seek out one of the stewards who I am sure will welcome your query and either give you an answer or point you in the direction of someone who can. After all we have ALL been in your shoes. |
Guest
Username: New
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, 25 October, 2007 - 03:56 pm: | |
Thanks for your informative answer to my post, Fiona. I am new to this IHDT business, and am trying to get my little outfit ready to start at club class level. But you can understand my concerns on reading Duncs post, having only had personal experience of trying low-level ridden dressage. I have only been, so far, to observe one IHDT competition at Moreton Morrell on Sunday, and I have to say, I don't have the foggiest who was judging Paces and Precision there, but, it must have been judged in a fairly "detatched"?, objective way as I was delighted to see two really well deserved wins, in two of the classes. The first was a delight of a mare (9hh high, Called Cowslip/Slippy??) driven beautifully, to a win by a novice driver. The second, was an amazing pair of mini Shetlands, driven by a young? girl (forgive me, I'm getting to the age now where everyone I meet is starting to look young). These Shetlands, a white/grey, and a chestnut, did the most lovely dressage test with her. It flowed, was accurate, they worked up into their bridles, were obedient, still in the halt section, and they extended into a fabulous lengthened stride section. They were a real joy to watch. I was impressed that this judge did'nt just write them off as soon as they walked in, simply because, due to my previous dressage/showing experiences, that was what I have learned to expect. And you've probably already guessed, if I had any tiny quibbles, yes, I probably would work up the courage to raise queries with an organiser, politely of course, (maybe after a stiff gin!!) I have , so far, been pleasantly surprised with what I have found under the IHDT umberella, and I hope that at last, I've found a sport that I can participate in with my lazy cob, and my stunted pony!, on an equal footing to everyone else. And I and my daughter are both really looking forward to "having a go" . Only one question that I have failed to find the definative answer for so far, is, If say in Test No. 12, point 7. At B halt. 6 seconds. Which bit of pony/driver/carriage is to be level with the marker to be strictly correct and accurate?? Thanks so much Fiona, for your words of encouragement, and I really was'nt trying to make inflammatory remarks........ I'm just trying to research my way into a sport that I don't know all about, so that I don't get any nasty surprises to deal with , with a 10 year old excrutiatingly keen child in tow!!!! |
Fiona Powell
Username: Fionap
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, 25 October, 2007 - 02:20 pm: | |
Nothing I disagree with about your experiences, Guest! My cob Sonic and I shared your battle. The more experienced driver-judges tended to be kinder to our good-for-a-novice paces, marking on the change of pace and capability of the horse, not just comparing him to a Hackney or Gelderlander.
If I may expand on my comment about judges using different criteria, I was actually thinking more about the more objective precision marking - "is it the nose or the front axle which stops at X?" kind of difference - more than the paces and also that some judges mark novices more kindly than non-novices in paces and precision.
Easy for me to say and hard (for you) to do, but do you tell your event organiser? If he/she does not know of your disgruntlement, nothing will change and you'll miss out on a lot of fun. Can you get different judges? Luckily we have experienced P&P judges who drive and teach driving, and/or teach ridden dressage. Or can you persuade the judge(s) to run a clinic or training session to explain what they are looking for? This could be on-foot with videos, or with horses. Perhaps just a couple of hours at an arena (could be outdoors) and charge a little for people to come and watch if you have to hire it. I know it's an effort to set this up but quite a few of "my lot" come for training and they are the ones who are improving the fastest.
Also: a Shetland regularly performs extremely well in outdoor dressage in East Anglia; "Football" a piebald Shetland used to give the most wonderful extended trot in our area - and got marked well for it and lastly, my ponies are half Hackney and no-one can say they aren't "flashy". I aspire to be "dull" with our heads down, soft backs and low knees because we usually get too much "look at me!"... Perhaps I should come to your area?!
(P.s. I don't think my tuppence-worth will solve the question, but please keep trying! There were plenty of horses and ponies at the indoor final without fantastic paces.) |
Guest
Username: New
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Monday, 22 October, 2007 - 03:08 pm: | |
Hi. Dunc, I have had similar problems trying to do low-level ridden dressage with a native-y, carthorsey small cob, at Prelim 1 sort of level. I no longer "do" dressage, I gave up, other than playing at it for my own enjoyment ? ! in my field at var/www. I found that, at the lower end of the sport, at the point where you can get anything from a "carthorse",to a warmblood turning up to compete, that many judges seem to judge not the dressage test, but the horse in front of them, expecting warmblood, hanovariany paces from everything that was entered. I know my cob's never going to be an olympic dressage diva, and Pammy Hutton was always safe at her level when I competed, but it is demoralising to be reminded constantly that you're really out of your league, simply because a judge is'nt into what animal you're competing on/with. That is my "take" on dressage in general. As far as Precision, and Paces in IHDT go, as someone who is "watching this space" with interest, having a Standard Shetland that I hope to compete with at this sport, I have to say that Dunc's observations are ringing some worrying bells for me. Fiona, I know you are speaking from your vast experience in this sport, and I would not presume to contradict you, however, you wrote in your answer to Dunc, that, "It is faintly possible that a judge is judging to different criteria and this should come out in conversation... ". "Different criteria" to whom? Surely, there should'nt be any room whatsoever for judging different criteria, judging in this area of this sport should be fairly consistant? Otherwise, would'nt they be better off judging in a show ring?? Surely they should be looking for an accurately driven test, AND correct way of going on the pony's side of things, with correct, active forward going paces, whether a short-backed, short-legged native, or a Gelderlander? I like flashy, if correct, but I do wonder that some judges are perhaps a little prejudiced against non flashy workman-like ponies however correct they actually are. Dunc, keep going mate, we've got to keep the end up for the littlies, who maybe are'nt ever going to set the rest of the world on fire in a million years.......
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Mike Watts
Username: Mikew
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, 16 October, 2007 - 08:56 am: | |
Jess, You're right that at Wix the judge at C did paces, the judge high up above A precision. Certainly they could see well, though as you imply, from any position some movements will be more visible than others.
However I think Dunc must be talking about another event, perhaps Laughton. |
Jess Hine
Username: Jessh
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Monday, 15 October, 2007 - 10:24 pm: | |
Hi,
The position of judges is an interesting issue. I thought the judge at 'C' was assessing paces and the other sitting in the booth above 'A' was assessing precision - if so that's a good position to give accurate scores. Am I wrong? We had to leave after doing the obstacles and the scores for P&P hadn't been handed out by then, so we didn't get ours. At Swaffam the judges were on the same side and it must have been difficult to assess the lengthened strides on one of the diagonals. But then, every position will have a disadvantage somewhere!
jess , groom... still very new to trial driving :-D
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Fiona Powell
Username: Fionap
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, 14 October, 2007 - 05:52 pm: | |
Hi, I'm sorry you are feeling disgruntled... as an event organiser myself I want to answer this. I'd want to know how you felt and why at the time to try and resolve the issue speedily. Speak to your organiser and (you might wish to) ask if you can speak to the Precision judge about your score. Most judges will at least explain what they are looking for: they might not remember you and your test, but a positive way of tackling this is to say "How can I do better next time?". It's one of those things that we 'umble competitors have to accept the judges' opinions. Judges give up their time for minimal or no reward and they do their best, in my experience, but they are human! Some will like your type of pony and some won't in terms of paces but precision should be based on your accuracy in the arena, as you say. If you don't see the scores until the judge has left, I'd definitely like you to take it up with me if you were at an event I organised, and I'd speak to the judge on the general question and get back to you about it. It is faintly possible that a judge is judging to different criteria and this should come out in conversation...
As for judging at C - they have to stand somewhere! C is the traditional position and they can see if you are straight on the centre line...
Sometimes a driver can be brilliant at Precision and not so hot at Paces, so you can get 7 for one and 4 for the other in the same movement (as you probably know - sorry if this is granny + egg-sucking). I am in the same boat as you on this topic so I do sympathise - except that we get marked down for being "flashy" in the wrong places (quite rightly, unfortunately).
p.s. Don't give up! |
Guest
Username: New
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, 14 October, 2007 - 04:08 am: | |
Please explain how the Paces and Precision judges can sit at 'C' and mark a test accurately. In test 12, section 9 'k-h' = walk. I walked from the moment the pony's nose hit K to when it hit h and I was scored 4. I do not have a flashy Hackney but a short legged, short backed M&M pony. How many types of walk are there - this is not 'Show Dressage'. We will never get 8s for any movement but we try to be accurate and get into the corners and turn on time etc How can you judge this from 'C'? Why do we get a 5 when using all the arena and a 'flashy' horse that cuts corners and is late on transition get a 7? This is our second year and it seems that some judges look at the horse/pony and not the precision/paces, Paces will never be a high score for us but We just want some sort of consistency because if the IHDT gets 'showy' you have lost another enthusiastic supporter.
Dunc
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