| Author | Message | ||
     Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
I have loved reading this section over the weeks but from my point of view, (limited as daughter has only competed in one indoor season), it often seems to me whoever has the fastest pony wins despite not having a good P and P score, so I think more weighting or emphasise should be placed on P&P not less. My daughter does really well with her little shetland in P and P but is accurate in cones and obstacles but lacks the ability to cover the ground as she is so small. P & P is about practise and schooling, even during the winter if you don't have a menage you can use you can practise the paces whilst driving out, thats what she did! We have just done our first outdoor trial and the P & P scoring sheet was like ridden dressage with lots of helpful comments, this would be a better format is possible to adopt indoors, to help us all improve and understand whats not right. We love driving, indoors and out and have found it to be much more friendly and fun than riding! Nicolette Hughes | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
Having read all of the interesting comments on this thread I feel I should at least comment. I have driven at nearly all of the championships. Everytime there has been a different test, different judges and of course different personal results. Sometimes I have been last after the P&P, sometimes I have been 1st. After every P&P I have always felt that I could have driven the test better. Sometimes I have felt that I could have been judged at little better and sometimes I felt that the score was correct (a 44 thanks Trog). Every time I have competed regardless of my position after P&P and cones the final result has been down to the last two obstacles. Having experienced both sides of the coins ie, "the chased and the chaser", I feel that the format does work rather well. With this format, you can have a animal whose paces or temperament means that it is unable or unwilling to give you a great paces score. However if you can keep your cool and drive an accurate test you can still finish in the top 6 if not the top 3 in any class. If you have managed to train a bit the animal will be fit and supple enough to compete against anyone in the obstacles. The judges will always make mistakes, lets face it we all do. The most important thing at the end of the day is to stay safe and have fun. These are the two most important aspects in any equine competition. Whatever the judge thinks, I am sure each competitor knows just how great their horse is. As far as I'm concerned my ponies are the best in the world, they look after me, never question me, and we have a great time together. This is the feeling I take var/www with me every time -) sod the judges. There have been bad days when I think all is lost but by morning the horses are neighing the sun is shining (Ha Ha) and we are ready for another season of indoor driving. I am sure that there could and probably will be changes to the format. Whether it be different judges or a different scoring system, the sport has to continue to move forwards. I for one will continue to support the sport for as long as I'm able to. Stay safe and enjoy driving Katie Eyres x | ||
| Fiona Powell Username: Fionap Registered: 12-2003 |
I agree with many comments made, but (as an organiser) can someone tell me how to find and motivate BD judges to come and watch us for three hours in a freezing cold arena? The judges who generously support my area - and in Norfolk - are very keen on carriage driving. They want to support our sport and they will turn up for every event, offer help and guidance (if asked) to any competitor, take an interest in the wider field of driving and encourage youngsters and oldsters alike, and don't complain! They all really care about driving. (I don't think this is a pre-requisite but it helps - not that I'm saying that BD judges wouldn't care!) I agree that judges need to know what they are looking at and be scrupulously fair, mark consistently and judge without favour. I need to know they will turn up at every event and do this happily all season for a small sub towards their fuel costs, a cup of tea and a bacon butty! It's great to have this discussion... what are the practical solutions we can put in place before October? p.s. why not make P&P a smaller contribution to the overall marks? (But I would say that...) | ||
| Duncan Seth-Smith Username: Sakofox Registered: 08-2007 |
It is fairly obvious that there are people passionate about their indoor driving. I am one of them but we must remember that it should be fun, it should encourage drivers and horses and ponies no matter how experienced, trained or bred [equines that is]. You should be able to take dobbin out of the paddock and go and have fun, or conversley load your high bred, fully trained experienced equine and give it the experience of tight indoor driving. In he 07/08 season we went on tour and did an event at Tick Hill, Laughton Manor & Forest Edge and the finals '08. Our P&P points at one venue were generous compared to the other two areas,but everyone was marked under the same criteria, we went to the finals knowing that our weakest discipline was P&P and we scored lower than normal - but so did most other people. As long as each judge marks everybody the same way, the final results will be fair and honest. I'm sure they were this year. With regard to the cones and obstacles - keep them as they are and change them for each event - that's what makes IHDT so appealing to most competitors. At the end of the day you may be fortunate enough to win a £1 rossette. We are not playing for lottery money so let's not make the sport too serious. | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
Noticing the point some people have made about 'uniform' obstacles I think I should point out that this would make the competition actually a bit boring and unfair. Some people compete in several areas and would therefore drive the same obstacles several times (even if each venue only has the same design once) and having driven it at one venue be able to practice elements of it at var/www.- Surely it’s more fair to have a totally unknown course on the day. Also it’s not wanting 'uniformity' in all the phases its wanting the dressage judges to all look for the same qualities in the horses performance and the way they are driven. I think British dressage judges would be the fairest way to judge the finals as not only do they have the skill but neither are they so easily influenced by the name and reputation of the driver; they are more likely to judge what they see on the day. We would all like to be judged positively for how we perform on the day. Perhaps at the finals the dressage test could be more challenging so that the positive that can be achieved is more easily rewarded, for example all the drivers drove a test in ring 2 that did not offer the depth of skill the one they had been driving all season. Drivers could not bring out their horses true potential with a test that did not require the collection or extension for example, and the training that has gone hand in hand with it. It is so important to keep the dressage as any one can practice improving speed for obstacles but at the finals it is especially important to have judges who can take into account all the aspects of driven dressage and test- which enable any age or level of drivers to be rewarded for elements they have successfully schooled their horses for. – The horses who excel in the dressage phase should be given an opportunity to show their high schooling as they are not necessarily fast and any pony has the opportunity to show how fast it can go in obstacles. It is only fair that novices and older juniors have the chance to gain as many points as possible for a horse that can perform challenging dressage skills well. Though some will argue that a ' novice' horse or pony should not have to show an extension or collection –(though they have all season!) think of it this way, the best novices within two season will be through intermediate and into open where these moves will have to be performed well, at the national finals surely it is better to present a challenge and reward positively each training step that has been achieved. | ||
| Martin Pink Username: Martinpink Registered: 09-2008 |
This is certainly a facinating debate,& I must thanks Dilys for the Patient tuititon that got me to the finals & the Indoor Teams for running the same Excellent Finals . Yes the Judging was hard , but lets be fair the Test itself was actually quite simple compared with that we have been doing all Season only 6 Transitions & no Collected Trot . Whilst I understand that a Newcomer to the sport attending their first meeting in October/november could benefit from a little sympahetic scoring ,surely anyone attending a National Finals should expect a stiff test:As long as it is on a level playing field does it really matter? Yes it would be nice to have comments on our slips even one or two words could help ! I was personally quite happy with my Test ,amongst higher figures I had 2 4S & a 3 , viewing them on a video later I would probably have scored the same . Whoever scored the Minus 1 figure though must have watched Spinal Tap the previous Evening? Great Sport IDHT It ain@t broken so dont fix it!Great Tuition Dilys Thank you! Martin | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
It's me again! Someone will have to lock up my keyboard!! Regarding judges writing comments,well, when I wrote for one of Chester Driving Trials Group " Paces " judges in January,namely Mr John Clarke, he insisted that we include a final comment at the end of each sheet. He always tried to make this comment something positive even if the test he had just witnessed had been disasterous. Things like " very nice pony" or " well driven" and if the test had been a particularly good one he would put "a pleasure to watch-well done ". The response throughout the day from competitors was amazing as many sought him out to personally thank him for his kind words. ( he actually stayed for the rest of the day to assist on door duty in biting cold winds- and him a mere octogenarian!!!!) The point I'm making here is that it took no longer to write these comments and the whole P&P flowed smoothly with no delays. Another point someone brought up ( my backstepper actually) was why are'nt we allowed to drive a couple of laps of the arena before we start our test like you are allowed to do at a British Dressage competition.This can be invaluable in settling a horse or pony. Just a thought and, yes, I know it would eat into our tight time schedules. I'll try and keep quiet for a while now but this whole debate is really interesting. C.Redgrave | ||
| Nic & Libby Castle Username: Northernplan Registered: 10-2007 |
This is an interesting discussion that has been going judging needs to be of a high standard aand of a similar standard, from event to event. Between us Libby and I see a lot of dressage at events because between us we see every dressage at every event we attend. The standard was across a much larger spectrum this year, and Di's score was for a tremendus test. At the other end of the spectrum was tests that where much worse.That is to be expected at a National Chamionship where you have people who have competed internationally and beginners at the same event. The point is that dressage scores are subjective will always vary from judge to judge, so what you need is consistency so that people across the board are scored fairly. Ideally judges are all of the same standard and would mark the same tests the same, in the real world this will not happen, the best we can hope for is consistency throughout competitions. This may lead to problems when you go from competition to competition and area to area. All Scores are shown at the event and so you can see is everyone was scored harshly. What woult the response have been if no one scored under 5 on their test? I guess it would be different. It is disheartening when a judge scores harshly,but it is important to look at the scores in context with one another at the event, not necessarily how mr bloggs scored you at your area three weeks previously. At the end of the day it is the national championships and standards would be expected to be high. Judges are only human and may be expecting a higher standard and score with that in mind at the nationals without even consciously doing so. The other side of the coin is what Dilys brought up and that is "What is actually being judged?" Using the B.D. standard is a good way to raise standards and help bring more consistency between judges. But some would argue that this does not happen even when these stadards are used and this discussion still raises its head with the outdoor judges. This is never going to go away and will need to be consistently reviewed and altered. The initial goal to me is getting consistency at individual events this is easier to do and monitor. If this is done then it is possibly to move on to the bigger picture Having the same obstacles and cones courses at every qualifying event seems a good idea, people could then see how they compare across the country. The arguement about time is easily sorted. Every organisor sorts out the cones and obstacles for their events, so ask each organisor to submit a set of obstacles and a cones course. Choose the best and then distribute them to all the organisor with an order they have to be used in. The only other comment about this thread is that people have put on comments without a signature of who they are or being registered. If peopleare not willing to put their nameto a post is it not better being dismissed and removed. | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
I fully understand that the p&p judges do not have time to write comments,which l think would help competitors as we all know sometimes people on the ground can see things that sitting behind a horse may feel o.k,would a compromise be to produce a mark sheet with the relevant comments beside the mark,which could be used at all events nationally and put up at events for competitors to refer to if in doubt as maybe once in place it wouldn't create to much extra work for all the brilliant organisers and we could check we're all singing from the same song sheet.Thanks to all the IDHT for another great season. James Lewis | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
Steph's idea of set courses for the cones and obstacles for all the Qualifiers ( Yes, somebody would have to sit down and design six or so cones courses and an equal number of pairs of obstacles- quite a mean feat in itself- but not impossible ) sounds quite good- after all the P & P test is uniform. Perhaps there should also be a minimum ( or is that maximum??!!! )score necessary to qualify, say for example a score of less than 200 or 220- whatever. You'd still get a few "dressage disasters" through though as, like an earlier posting mentioned, even with a bad P&P score,some can catch up with a good cones and obstacle score ( just like the Eventing world!) but surely there's no shame in that??? ( I've heard of Boyd Exell doing just that on more than one occasion) The only thing that might result from these changes is possibly less entries for the Qualifiers, therefore less revenue for each area,therefore the risk of losing areas if they can't be viable. I's a vicious circle! By the way, was the standard of the Novice section so much worse than previous years? I still maintain that my Paces was harshly judged but despite this we still managed a reasonably respectable score having looked at the results at past Finals. I never felt " out of my depth" at all. I'm still as proud as punch of my ex-Harness racing horse ( and he's a Pacer, just to make things even more complicated- he deserves 10 out of 10 just for maintaining trot in such atmospheric conditions!!! ) I'm sorry but I'm afraid we're both absolutely hooked on this fantastic sport now so you're stuck with us and I just hope Dick and Rita don't misinterpret my ramblings as criticism towards them, they surely must be the patron saints of Drivers! C.Redgrave | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
hello... Firstly a massive thankyou to all those that make the indoor driving so much fun, where would we be without you? many thanks. This years finals.... my personal experiance was to come out of the dressage arena feeling that to my ponys standard of test we had done a reasonably good test, not our best but good, only to wait for hours to recieve our score sheets. I stood shocked! We are at the finals and we recieve 2's 3's and 4's... how has this happened, these sort of scores generally mean in british dressage INSUFFICENT. I was extremley upset down hearted and only prayed that my daughter who was also competeing (intermediate junior)didn't get the same sort of results as me. Sometime later after being uplifted by the team from the area in which i drive i returned to the score board to find that i was in first place(4th after dressage only), if i feel this bad on reading my score sheet how must others feel, where is the encourgement, either we need comments to back these scores or a judge that knows what a 2 is for!! I do not know the judges name and i'm not having a personal attack but the championships are the very best of all the areas we all work hard to get our ponys/horses there mostly for fun. At least the judging was consistant, but very very sole destroying. There should always be a positive to a negative. Like i say the judging was consistant but very very negative, sole desroying. I am one of the people that promted Dilys to start this debate and am grateful for her time at the champs... Personally i think we need either a judges comments sheet like ridden dressage were if you score below a 7 the judge should make a comment on why your score is below standard, or a judge that can be constructive with marking when only giving a number score. Dressage is a positive thing showing that you are in tune with your pony/horse and that you are comfortable together working in harmony.... score 2's think my pony should be at var/www!!! Once again lets not loose this fantastic sport, thanks to all that make it possible. Lindsey and Samantha Doran, and a much loved star pony Just william. | ||
| Rita Bundock Username: Roanmare Registered: 11-2007 |
Dick & I have been reading your comments with interest as we are aware that the P&P phase needs a shake up, we are working on it and will give it our full attention after Brighton HDT that we also organise. Ridden dressage judges have been used for many years so there is no change here, the only difference from driving judges is they expect to be given generous expenses as they are at ridden events. (I personally have not organised any ridden events for many years, but when I did, the income was far greater then that we get at inoor qualifiers.) Step Nuttall is quite correct, there just simply is not the time for judges to write comments during a indoor test, it would lengthen the P&P phase by something like an hour I should think. An hour on a very long day does not sound very appealing for competitors or stewards. At The Championships we try to get the best judges, not always easy but this year we got them. Each experienced in driving and judging, at least one judge has represented Great Britain at the World Championships. Judges can only judge what is put before them not of what could be. Perhaps only the very best competitors should come to the Championship, (but how do we determine the best throughout the UK?) some were out of their depth at this level and this showed up in their P&P scores, but many made good obstacle times. P&P stands for: PACES - the way the horse/pony goes forward and uses itself and in the correct out line - nothing looks worse than a floppy string bean in harness!! Good ridden judges will give very bad marks for this type of outline, for if the animal is not in the correct outline it will NEVER get the paces correct, it MUST work from behind. PRECISION = ACCURACY. Many marks can be gained by being accurate, use the corners - get the circle the right size - get to the markers JUST before it, this will set you up for the next movement - drive the centre line straight without any wriggles - devations are of 5m which is a quarter of the width of the arena, not almost the centre line. There is no way that the overall format of Indoor HDT is going to change by introducing long reining or Trec or anything else to replace P&P. (I would love to long rein instead of P&P, my old boy does a lovely half-pass) This is Horse Driving Trials but indoors and hopefully a lot of fun for everyone during the 'closed season' of winter. If anyone has any sensible ideas on scoring P&P or any other phase of the competition - qualifying - please email: dick@ihdt.co.uk or rita@ihdt.co.uk we will be pleased to hear from you. We listen to our members, consider in depth what they say then act upon it accordingly, which is why the P&P scoring is as it is now... Rita B | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
As I understand it, Dick and the crew began the indoors to be a bit of fun in the winter months, and to encourage new and/or junior drivers etc.And this has been achieved. The competition combines 3 phases in one day which means tight scheduling. To have judges writing comments for the dressage would require a little more time for each competitor. At the end of the day, the people who organise/help/judge give up their free time to allow many people to compete and enjoy themselves. The regions allow people to compete regardless of their standard and at the end of the day as many people as possible should be encouraged. I am not saying that competitors should not want to improve their marks or the horses way of going, but advice could or may be given after the judge has finished judging. if you want consistency throughout the regions, then should we be thinking that each region uses the same cone course design and the same design of obstacle -(tight obstabcles or free flowing ones). The Indoor Driving Trial Group do a fantastic job, in all weathers so we can have a bit of FUN! Steph Nuttall | ||
| Dilys Gordon Username: Dilysg Registered: 04-2009 |
In reply to T G There were, I think, 8 Novice classes, including Juniors, Intermediates and Veterans at the Championships. I know not who the Judges were nor how many classes each judged. The gripe is not with individuals, it is looking for a better system in future years. I am so pleased this Forum is available as it is possible to open up a debate whereas, letters to organisations frequently get swept under the carpet when the going gets uncomfortable. We all have opinions and this way those opinions can be heard by many. My preference, at all times, would be to use British Dressage Judges for IHDT and invite them to give written comments on each movement so that drivers have some idea of what is good and where faults are being made, giving something to be worked on before the next outing. Dilys G | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
To pick points on just one judge surely isnt fair, especially on here when everyone comments on them, if you had a problem about your scores then you should of had a quiet word with the judge there and then, at the finals i drove a pony pair, i didnt get the score i wanted but thats because there was alot wrong with my test i.e ponys not bending etc etc, at all the qualifiers judges are generous, it was the finals, judging is ment to be strict, i take my hat off to the judges, one judge gave a competitor all 10's! does that make a bad judge! i'd rather be judged by a strcit judge giving low marks so i know what to work for and aim towards, surely aslong as the judge judge's everyone the same its all fair T.G | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
I think the point Dilys made in her original posting is a very valid one, until there is consistency in the judging of the dressage this element unbalances the rest of the copetition.... The correctness of the horses way of going should be the focus of the paces marks, not the judges opinion of the animal itself. They should be considering the true elememnts of dressage in their assements; not just rythym but suppleness, bend, self carriage, correct footfalls, impulsion, lack of tension to name but a few - not find a single fault they dislike and consistenlty mark a horse down for it. I would agree with Dilys about the judge finding the positive and rewarding it.-As it is all to easy to be swayed by flashy movements ( even when the horses head is fixed and they are not connected through their backs). Also the weighting of the individual mark is based on the negative. for example - in the walk the horse may have done a perfect transition, a good walk but figited in its halt with its feet, though the horse may have stayed in the same place , (totally under control,) an overall move worth 8 it instantly dropped to a 3 as the judge has focused on the small lapse rather then all the things that were right with the movement, yes I see it's no longer an 8 but would it really deserve to drop 5 marks? 3 means fairly bad, surely fairly bad would be jogging etc- having made this point it easy to see how unbalanced marking in the dressage phase does make it difficult for a mainly correct horse that has perhaps made a small error to gain back lost ground to a horse with more significant weakness in dressage that it less commonly picked up by untrained judges. I do feel we need to go down the road of qualified , trained judges particurly for paces. A ridden dressage judge can mark this perfectly well, as a well schooled horse will look the same in the carriage as under saddle. The precision judge is responable for the positioning of the carriage (amoung other things) in the test. | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
I agree, there is nothing wrong with the format of Paces and Precision. It actually gives competitors with horses who don't possess brilliant paces another chance to gain scores by being spot on with their precision and use of the arena, providing both judges do only mark their own section and are not swayed either way. Had it not been for the Precision section at the Finals, some competitors could have come away with even more disasterous results!!!!! Obviously the Precision judge was not on a mission like the Paces one seemed to be. You can't really knock the area organisers for "allowing" sub-standard competitors to qualify, God knows, they have a hard enough time anyway just putting on an event and the majority of people enter for the fun of it. Let's not forget- it is supposed to be FUN. Some people that qualified even went to The Finals knowing they hadn't got a cat in hell's chance of a placing but just wanted to be able to experience the whole atmosphere of The Finals weekend for the sheer thrill of it, which says a lot about the sport-that it is fast,furious,friendly,frustrating ( just the P&P bit!!!). So I for one hope nothing changes other than kinder Paces judges! | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
There is nothing wrong with the P&P scoring system!!! I do agree that there is alot of inconsistant judging going on both here in the IHDT and in the BHDTA. In an ideal world all judges should be looking for the same things, but this does not happen. Also many of the judges used during the winter season are doing it for nothing, we do try to obtain good and fair judges but some times we get what we can. Have a look at other areas and there P&P scores! those that were getting in the low teens and even single figure scores did not achieve the same scores at the finals.Maybe there judges are better or just not being realistic? I was at the Finals and could not believe the poor quality on show looking to move up!! We all want to go to the finals but if a driver and or horse/pony are not ready then wait until next year. So many animals above, below, hollow, unlevel and poorly driven but have all qualified to be there?? Maybe we need a harder qualification criterior and the organisers of each area should ensure better quality of turnout at the finals. S.Asher (Co Oraniser) | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
I think that the lowest score of the competition awarded in Open Horse epitomises all that was wrong with the Dressage judging at this years finals,,,,,sadly! | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
I also agree with you about have you split into precision and paces. From past experence I have had on my paces dressage sheet a comment saying "circle to BIG." Also yes why can't dressage judges add one or two marks to everyone test, making everyone feel better about there test. But i don't think it should be removed from the competition as it would the obstacles the most inportant phase in the competition. You can already score a very poor dressage test and still come first by being very fast in the obstcles | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
Hi Dilys, I couldn't agree more with you. As a Novice Horse competitor at the finals ( actually driving a NOVICE horse! ) I was gobsmacked to receive my dressage sheet with marks for paces of nothing more than 2's and 3's!!!!! I also own a horse which competes at British Dressage Medium level so I'm not completely ignorant of how a correct horse should be moving and although my driving horse has got a lot of improvememt to make, he certainly did not deserve those sort of marks. As you say, it is very soul destroying. Reading your posting really cheered me up as I was obviously not the only one made to feel as though we had no right to be in the arena. Not much of a way of encouraging up and coming drivers is it? Apart from that, The Finals weekend was absolutely fantastic and I would like to add my thanks to the IHDT team for all their hard work and for such a wonderful sport. Carole Redgrave | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
The 2008/09 Championships at Keysoe are now history. What a fantastic weekend with so much hard organisational work put in I suspect by so few people. I applaud 'THE TEAMS' for all that was done to give us a winter full of great sport driving. IHDT has snowballed into something much bigger than was probably ever intended and now is the time for some 'fine tuning'. We have moved into the world of 'International Competition'. Having been known as a Listed British Dressage Judge since the last century, it becomes increasingly difficult for me to understand how the test can be accurately split into Precision and Paces. Sadly, I question the knowledge and understanding of Judges used for the Novice classes at the Championships. It is a very sad fact that over 61% of Non Open Class competitors received less than 50%, yes FIFTY percent, for their total Paces mark. This means their marks were averaging 4's and 5's. Unfortunately, one Judge apparently even managed to find a '-1' mark!!! This type of judging is sole destroying. BHDT has already stated a few years ago that they would like to Judge as do British Dressage and it is my understanding that IHDT follows BHDT rules somewhat. If a Judge in a BD class felt that the equine being judged only warranted a 4 for paces then there would be questions as to the correctness of pace and a possible referal to a vet. A 4 means 'Insufficient'. Are YOU aware of so many poor animals (dis)gracing the Novice arenas? This certainly is not a Showcase for moving into Europe and that standard given for Novice classes is probably seen in no other sport. The training of a British Dressage judge is ongoing and constant at every level so that skills are acquired to fully understand the way of going of horses and ponies and judging is rational and knowledgeable. A BD Judge can find the good and positive in a movement and reward accordingly instead of dwelling on the negative. I was prompted/requested by several extremely distraught Novice drivers, holding forth their disastrous dressage scores, to start this debate. Maybe, until Judges receive the correct and necessary training, dressage should be removed from the competition and some other discipline incorporated that is factual rather than opinionated. How about a TREC type course or some form of long reining or.......? What I don't want to see is some breakaway from this essentially brilliant sport. Much hard work has been put in to establish what we have thus far but, I believe we all have ideas on how to make it even better. What do YOU think? Dilys G |