| Author | Message | ||
     James Binns Username: Jamesb Registered: 12-2008 |
I believe that if something needs saying just say it the way it is!! Most people dont because of the belief that they will be pushed out or given poor scores and out of the clicks that are within the sport, both indoors and out. If people are not prepared to put there heads above the parrapit and be counted then they should accept the way it is and get on with having FUN thats why we do this is it not? Please remember though ALL EVENTS are run by unpaid volunteers and the last couple of weeks threads I am sure have some of them and the organizers thinking why are WE doing this? Come on lets move on and compete!!!!! James Binns | ||
| Ginny White Username: Ginnyw Registered: 11-2006 |
Have scrolled through the whole list i have giggled and so will share my thoughts!. I'm 51 so inbetween 50 and 60! and have a 21 year old daughter a junior in outdoor driving. Ruth is not driving indoor this season due to work, but 6years ago we both drove at Wix for a whole season both members and we shared the driving! at every event we were then no threat to Keysoe! and were not aware it was not prudent to do so!!!.And not aware of a Junior class. We were noticed towards the end of the season and have never done it since we often swaped after the dressage and always drove 2 obstacles each. Ruth has rarely driven indoor as a junior, as we share the pony. Out door yes but that is a crazy age under 25! lets not go there!. And me i've spent all my driving time having fun and being beaten by Juniors. And do i mind no,they are all polite lovely people, i spent years in riding club organising junior teams, they are the sports future if they stay interested. Sometimes the biggest problem with juniors is the parents - i also teach at pony club!.But without the keen parental interest the juniors can't drive. I'm sure the indoor office will come up with a solution. And we know Dily's is'nt on line cause of big brother! no i don't watch it. Roll on better weather it's been nice to have a break after the intense summer but snow is now tedious. Safe driving everyone. | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
In reply to the Guests post 9/12 (sorry for the slow reply but I have to work) You said”Are you saying because of all the problems in the world we should not try to improve these mundane things?” NO, I am saying that in the greater scheme of things, that the need for ‘Tristan’ and ‘Trixabelle’ to compete at Keysoe is low. Is it any more important for an eight or eighteen year old to compete than any other age group? It is meant to be a Championship event, therefore only a selection of people can go. “for me you haven’t solved the problem”. I can’t actually understand your problem, so a solution would be difficult. Also following the thread, it’s difficult not knowing if ‘Guest’ is one of many or as suggested, many of one. So if I could find a solution to one of your problems would the solution have a negative impact on one of your other identities problems? Your identification of a problem does not actually mean it is a problem, it just identifies that you have a problem with whatever it is. If this thread continues, those who are disadvantaged by their age will probable moved up an age category, no doubt creating a different problem. “I can fully understand that this thread bores you and you wish it would stop. Have you considered Sky TV?” You are being presumptuous; you do not understand that I am bored by the subject, I don’t know why you presume so, and it would not be for me to presume why any of ‘you’ think so. I range from happy to indifferent, for the thread to continue, I like a good debate but I believe that if a thing is worth saying or fighting for there is a need for people to stand up and be counted. Considering Sky television? No, I have no specific need for displacement activity and when the need arises for televisual entertainment, am content with watching rubbish on free channels. I have competed at Keysoe when juniors have chosen to compete in the ‘adult class’ and they beat me, should I have complained that they were younger and fitter than me so therefore I was disadvantaged? I think not. If you feel that all juniors should have the chance to compete at Keysoe at the Championships, all having a chance to compete in groups divided by age, competency, size of animal, or even maybe male/female groups, maybe the best solution would be to have a separate junior Championships and as you are so convinced that you have the answers and seemingly the time, you could organise it. Entries might be difficult or would do them like letters to Santa, just post them up the chimney and magic would get them there. Anonymity has its disadvantages. Deirdre Luff | ||
| IHDTC Office Username: Ihdtcoffice Registered: 01-2003 |
At the Indoor Championship, Saturday evening area knockout competion will be in aid of the Juniors going to Hungary for their World Cup. It is also a qualifying event for them, so only the best Juniors from each area (according to age)will qualify for the Championship. Junior Championship competition will be over two days - Saturday & Sunday of the Championship. | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
Posting every two minutes now then. Anyone got a calulator? | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
Or, without the maths, I think we are talking open, intermediate and novice junior classes. It works for the adults and it seems to line up with what the juniors are saying. Not as quick as sorting by age but not without merit. | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
To think this thread only started 'cos some Good mum was'nt sure if her daughter could compete at her local Competition in a Two Wheeler! Did she realise that she had opened such a can of worms! Do we get a special certificate if we can push on past the 100 mark ,or do we just get certified? Dazed confused & very shy of Berkshire!!!!!!11 | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
ok, random thoughts.... each event take top three open scores and calculate average.... each competing juniors score compared to that... if less than or equal, thats a senior junior, if more than but within 25% thats an intermediate junior, more than 25% higher its a junior junior.. irrespective of age of competitor. end of season, if qualify or invited to finals, they do so in whichever "class" they have most results... (%ges just illustration, organisers can debate whats appropriate) am sure it can be really complicated for Tom to put into scoring sheets! tony g | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
ok, random thoughts.... each event take top three open scores and calculate average.... each competing juniors score compared to that... if less than or equal, thats a senior junior, if less but within 25% thats an intermediate junior, more than 25% higher its a junior junior.. irrespective of age of competitor. end of season, if qualify or invited to finals, they do so in whichever "class" they have most results... (%ges just illustration, organisers can debate whats appropriate) am sure it can be really complicated for Tom to put into scoring sheets! tony g | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
The majority of the posts here (including this one) are basically about censorship. It's time to leave people alone to engage in GENERAL CHAT. That's the title of this forum. General chat is often boring. My mother's general chat is mainly about her washing machine. Sometimes she brightens it up with tales of my sister's washing machine. It is not boring to her. It makes her happy when I phone var/www. I say nothing. She’s my mum. The fact is that the guests do not want to post under their own names. I presume that without the guest mechanism they would not post at all – our loss. Most people who have complained about the guests have not come up with satisfactory reasons ( you're cowardly, you’re boring, you're impolite, you’re inappropriate). If you think that is the case then you have to explain WHY. Take as much space as you want. I will read it. I'm sure it helps the IHDTA to know what members are thinking even if they profoundly disagree with it or it bores them. It's not about about who you are. It's about what you say. It takes freedom of speech into new areas. It's the internet. It has been a pleasure to meet people like Dilys on this forum. A self confessed and self-effacing veteran who knows little of the gadgetry but has a better grasp of how to use the thing than all the rest of us. I look out for her posts (here and on the other place, but over there they don’t like guests in the main forum - their loss.). | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
I think that it's great that we can use the forum to chat and talk about driving. But as IHDT office said this is getting out of hand many many posts ago i agree. Regards | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
So, it is inappropriate to discuss IHDT matters on the IHDT forum? | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
Believe me Dilys, our Young Drivers do not have a problem with expressing their opinions in an open forum at Junior Training Camps, they also communicate on a very regular basis on both MSN and Facebook. They have a very able and experienced Junior Committee who are supported by some of the "very best" within HDT. As well as being brilliant young drivers, they are also great kids and young adults, who get on great together and support each other at all times. Lets give them a little more credit and now allow them to discuss the points raised in this link at the appropriate time, in the appropriate place, with the appropriate people. Louise Hodgson | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
So who you are is more important than what you say? Why should it have any importance at all? | ||
| Carole Redgrave Username: Caroleredgrave Registered: 12-2009 |
Hear, hear, Dilys! Well said! It's great to hear the juniors giving their point of view. I also think it is only good manners to put one's name to a posting-something that all the juniors seem to be doing. Carole | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
The Carriage Driving forum closed down - presumably because nobody could be bothered to post to it. Use it or lose it. Good for you Dilys! | ||
| Dilys Gordon Username: Noodle Registered: 10-2009 |
Please don't say this is boring, if so, you're the fool for reading it. I find this thread compulsive viewing even though I know nothing about 'the lower age' groups (being a veteran). It'a a bit like watching 'Mastermind' and not having a clue what the answer is but enjoying the experience anyway. I'm loving that some juniors are responding. Surely through this medium, it is much easier for them to give their thoughts rather than being asked in an open, live conference where most of us get withdrawal symptoms and dare not say exactly what we think. Must go, 9pm, 'Big Brother' has got me hooked - how sad is that? !!! Dilys G | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
This is boring... Enough now please!!!!!! | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
Yes, we can agree on that.  | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
I understand what you are saying, perhaps the answer is to get more younger people into the sport at an earlier age! Nicolette | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
Hello Nadia, I think it is a very good sign that both you and Michael are airing your views on the forum. It is the sort of feedback that IHDTA need in order to organise better competitions – even if they do get a bit grumpy about it at times. I also think you are owed a response, because you have made the effort to write in. However, I should probably point out that people are getting very bored with me for repeating the same thing over and over again. I agree that age is not a perfect way to separate juniors of different ability but it’s probably the best available. You could try size order or previous performances but it would take a long time to work out who is entering. All of the examples that you and Michael have given are specific examples of how age might not be a good measure of who is best . I am sure there are many examples of 11 year olds who can outperform 14 year olds. But this is unusual . Normally, a 14 year old will outperform an 11 year old. But your age is not really the problem. The problem is how do you decide which juniors should go to Keysoe (they can’t all go) and how do you split them into classes when they get there. You could have an 8 year old world champion and you would still have this problem. The juniors competing at the moment under the current rules (Christmas newsletter) would be split between the classes as follows:- Young junior ........................2-4 Intermediate junior...................4-6 Senior juniors........................33-37 I cannot tell the exact numbers because the results don’t indicate what age group the juniors are. If my numbers are correct I have two problems with this:- (1) The small classes are too small to have a good competition. (2) The big class is so big that some very good juniors will not get the chance to compete. I don’t know if the IHDTA has worked this out yet. But let me repeat, it’s nothing personal and I am not being “ageist” . It’s about what makes a good class in a competition and yes, in my opinion it is very much about fairness. I clearly have not been explaining it very well – for which I apologise. | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
Well, I'm a junior and I think 11 year olds (like me) should be allowed to compete against 14 year olds as long as one of us are not in completely different league. A 14 year old could of started driving when they were 12 and some one who is 11 could of started when they were 8! Therefore, the 11 year old may have more skills, not all young people are that bad at hand eye co-ordination or listening! I think that this topic on the forum should not be stopped because it really makes people think about other people's views. I think when the new rules come out for the juniors, they should be clear and made the same as H.D.T or international competitions. Finally, what about if you had a 13 year old that has competed at the world cup and you had a 12 year old that had started 1 year ago. What would you do to make that fair, because they would probably be in the same class at Keysoe???? Anyway I think driving is a great sport for all ages and ranges of ability to do. So have fun!!! Nadia at wix. | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
i only asked to now your name as you know mine and i was not meaning to affend anyone in anyway by asking for it. i do admit i am not the best with english, i had tryed to use "stardard english" but as you say i wil get better with age. i only suggested we see what the juniors think on facebook and unicorn trust was because on here people can answer anonymously pretending to be a junior just to get there point across. as for this discusion i really do not have anything more to say. i can see we are never going to agree on the matter. thanks for the tip on my gcses. happy new year, and good luck with the rest of the season. Michael hodgson ps carol, linda said today am supprised carol hasnt said anything :-P | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
Hello Michael, To deal with your first point. I think it’s fairly obvious that a child’s performance gets better as he/she gets older. The same is not necessarily true of adults. Perhaps “fair” was too emotive a word for you. I could say that an 11 year old and a 14 year old were not evenly matched in a competition. Can we agree on that? I have not suggested excluding anyone. Please re-read my post. The IHDTA wishes to exclude certain juniors who are not good enough for the national finals. They are working with a large number of competitors and a limited number of spaces so with the best will in the world they cannot invite everybody. I think we all understand that. The IHDTA has recently given a mechanism how it will allocate an unspecified number of junior places. It is certainly not my place to say they cannot do this but I do not believe the IHDTA has seriously looked at which and what type of juniors are likely to come to Keysoe. A good place to flag something like this up would be on the IHDT forum, which is what I am doing. The first question that came up was if you have three classes with, say, only 36 of the 40 or so competing juniors wanting to come would you need to exclude anyone at all? This caused a bit of a rumpus but seems very pragmatic to me. Anyway we didn’t get far with that one. The next question is should you set age ranges for the juniors when you have no idea what their ages are? Looking forward to the IHDTA comment on this one. Your suggestions re:-facebook and the unicorn are worth discussing. The decision must of course rest with the IHDTA because it’s their bat and their ball. It would be interesting to know what the facebook junior drivers and the unicorn juniors think. But if you want to talk to the IHDT you should really put it up on their forum (or email or phone but it would be interesting to discuss it on the forum). I know you people have abbreviated ways of communicating on text etc, but it would be really helpful to old fogies like me if you stick to standard English punctuation and spelling – might even help with your gcse’s! As for my name, the only reason I can think you would want it at this stage is to make personal comments or abuse. That would bring a lot of unpleasantness in and a lot of people would be upset. So can I just say no for the time being? | ||
| Carole Redgrave Username: Caroleredgrave Registered: 12-2009 |
Hey, you can tell how bad the weather is- all these drivers with too much time on their hands now they can't exercise their nags! Dilys will be loving this!!!! Who needs a telly? Some good points raised, Mike but I'm going to set you a spelling test for Northop so get swatting! Is everybody turning their nags out in the snow? - we are and they love it. First thing they do when they get out in the morning is to have a good roll in it! Almost dreading the thaw when it finally comes because the fields will be like swamps again. Carry on you scribes- keep us all entertained!! Carole | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
i dont see how you want so resolve this guest your saying a 11 year old cannot compete fairly with a 14 year old, but then want 2 make the age group smaller for the senior juniors e.g. 16-18. were would you like the 14 and 15 year old to move to, if they cant compete against a 11 year old fairly, the the young juniiors perhaps or just remove them from the whole compitition because there are stil not enough 14 and 15 year olds to create a good size class. why don't we let the juniors have a vote either on the junior driver group on facebook or at the next junior clinc at the unicorn trust. this will give the juniors a decision on what groups they want. or perhaps why dont you have a junior compition in your back garden were you can put the age range you want to have. Michael Hodgson ps it would be nice to know a name for you guest | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
Thank you for putting things into perspective Deirdre. Are you saying because of all the problems in the world we should not try to improve these mundane things? You now undeniably have the moral high ground but for me you haven’t solved the problem. I can fully understand that this thread bores you and you wish it would stop. Have you considered Sky TV? Looking at the other two posts I can see good points and bad points. Let’s start with the bad point. A fourteen year old is bigger, fitter, stronger and faster than an 11 year old, has better hand and eye coordination and probably has been driving for around three years longer. It is not fair to put these two in the same class. However, it might be unavoidable because you don’t have enough 11 year olds to make up a good class. But that still doesn’t make it an even contest. This logic can also be applied to your example of the 70 year olds and people who are 1 year, day or month older, but you get the opposite answer. (Hence the veteran’s class – would you say that’s unnecessary? The veterans appear to disagree). It’s ability, not age, but with juniors the two tend to go hand in hand. Not always, Nicolette, but enough to make it a good rule of thumb. I absolutely agree with Michael’s point that a small class is less interesting than a big class. If you go var/www with a red rosette from a class of two or three you have the feeling you haven’t really won anything. That is why I don’t agree with IHDT viewpoint that 8-10 year olds will be “encouraged” by being in a tiny group. Sure, you get your picture in Carriage Driving but you can’t kid a 10 year old. They will know. I also have no problem with IHDT setting a minimum standard or only allowing the best juniors to go to Keysoe. But it would be better to decide who should come first and then sift them by age into evenly sized ( hopefully big) classes. The age ranges don’t need to be cast in stone. They are only really there to balance up numbers. Finally, I agree with Deirdre that it should be about competition and participation and not winning. By all means encourage the little ones. Do this by inviting them to compete at Keysoe. But if everybody is so sure they don’t mind losing there is no problem having big class sizes and a cracking competition. Tell me if I’m wrong but I think that this year there is a disproportionate amount of senior juniors and hardly any juniors or intermediates. If you keep the system like this you will turn away a large number of very talented senior juniors. Don’t they need encouragement as well? | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
Enough! Over 25,000 children die every day around the world. That is equivalent to: • 1 child dying every 3.5 seconds • 17-18 children dying every minute • A 2004 Asian Tsunami occurring almost every 1.5 weeks • Over 9 million children dying every year • Some 70 million children dying between 2000 and 2007 I love carriage driving; it has been a lifelong passion, since I was a ‘child’. But please be realistic. There is no prise money, no worthwhile career. It is meant to provide pleasure, help to increase your child’s confidence, an opportunity for your children to grow and flourish. Who is concerned regarding the age group for competitions, you or your child? No one cares who wins the championships; beyond this forum it is unimportant. Even within this forum it is unimportant. The challenge is to get to a show safely, smile for the day and to arrive var/www intact. Keysoe provides all, despite age, with the opportunity to be windswept, cold, wet and frustrated, with the dreams that ‘if only’; I could have been the Champion. I hope to go to Keysoe, whether I do or don’t, if I return var/www, ponies well, lorry intact, ready to enjoy another day I will be the winner. Deirdre Luff | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
I think whatever age range is set for the classes when the young driver steps up into the next age range they will find it harder, the challenge is then to progress through the new group and improve and this may well happen with age. We can't get too hung up on age though as very young juniors often beat adults and some senior juniors, my daughter (11) doesn't see an older driver and think she wouldn't have a chance, she looks more at how good they are, there are some fab under 10's out there who can beat some senior juniors for example and good for them! I don't mind what groupings they do, lets just go out there, be competitive and overall have fun. Whatever is decided will never please everyone! Nicolette | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
I'm a junior, and am quite happy with the age ranges. The channel cup is a much large event then junior section at keysoe. We may have in tatal about 25 junior in eagland that want to compete an this level, but we had 46 at channel cup. so by making the class smaller you would end up having very little amount of people in each class. Keysoe is also a NATIONAL final to why should everyone be able to compete here only the best junior should go, not just to stop people crying about them not qualifying. people moan when they make it a 3 day event and then people moan when not every 1 that can qualify. people have said in earlier comments about my 11 year will never beat a 14 year old, does this mean in open pony, novice horse etc that a 70 year old man/women will always beat a 19 year old man/women, just because he is older. what about a day older does that make him have an unfair advantage? juniors know that not everyone can win. also a small class makes it alot less interesting than a large class. Michael hodgson | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
Hello Adam, I'm interested in your evidence when you say the juniors are happy with the rules. Do they fully understand them? For example, is everybody that is listed as a junior actually a junior by the ihdt definition? Are they following this post? I would like to see an inclusive approach to the junior classes at Keysoe and not an elitist one. The reason for this is that juniors get very few opportunities to compete with other juniors. At present there will be two very small junior classes and one class (senior juniors) where the majority will not be asked to attend because there are too many of them. If you could adjust the age ranges more juniors could come. People are trying to put their (note spelling!) views anonymously because it would invite a lot of personal backlash if people disagreed. Sometimes when people disagree it is easier to throw mud than to address the points raised. I agree with you that Ihdt Office are doing a difficult job well. I would also like to add that they are unpaid and put a lot of time and effort into this organisation. It is a reasonable viewpoint to canvass opinion for now and change the rules next year. Sometimes I wish they wouldn’t be quite so frumpy about it, but who am I a mere junior senior to argue. I hope they don’t close this thread but perhaps it could be subdivided a bit. However, this forum is a useful mechanism for people to vent their spleens. Better out than in - and I have seen a lot of sense in the views of people who have disagreed with me. I hope I have not been rude to them. As far as systems that aren’t broken are concerned are we talking about the junior class at Wix? I can’t see that being a sustainable system unless Wix gets a lot more juniors and a lot more novice ponies on board. On 24/10/2009 there was only 1 forward in novice pony. I hate to see people turn up to find they are in a class of one. So I think novice pony juniors should go into the novice pony class. In fairness to the Wix organiser(s) I think their approach is the most literal interpretation of the Ihdt clarification on this thread about thirty posts ago. I just don’t agree with the Ihdt clarification. So, no offence to anyone at Wix but I need to get the system straightened out before my child becomes a senior junior. Ps I haven’t even started yet on my next project for a 19-25 class. Should we use a clean thread? Pps How do you horsey people get the time to watch Sky Tv? | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
Half the problem is that people are posting without signing there name! At least have the guts to says whose opinion it is! Personally i think you shouldnt fix something if it isnt broken! As far as i can see the Juniors are very happy with the current system, and the IHDT do a brilliant job (who are volunteers!)to run great events for us all to go and compete at! Frankly the only people whos view should be important about the Indoor Junior age ruling are the Juniors! Who i've already said seem quite happy! Anyhow hope the snow clears soon so we can all get back to practicing! Happy Driving everyone! Adam Wyllie | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
Why no more posts on this subject? It is obviously of great importance to a large number of people. Personally I have no views one way or another but I do think its a bit much to use the IHDT Office username to confer authority on a form of censorship. The moderator is there to decide on content and providing there is no abuse or bad language there is no reason for intervention even if you do not want to hear what people think. | ||
| IHDTC Office Username: Ihdtcoffice Registered: 01-2003 |
This posting is now getting out of hand. The Rules regarding ages of Juniors are not going to change this season, all comments will be taken into consideration when the Rules are looked at and possibly revised for next seaon, so please no more postings on this subject. | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
Go ahead Guest whats your question? | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
To have a break from the 'arguments' just step back and take something in..... ....THIS IS THE 50TH POST!!! I cannot believe how long this has been! Just 2 simple questions and 50 posts! Sorry it made me really laugh when I realized there was 49. anyway this is very entertaining I might as well stop my sky tv and just sit on this everyday! Have fun discussing your issues! :D :p | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
why not have a separate class for everybody this way nobody can be upset if they dont win. MH | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
For those who will be losing sleep tonight about what a "year seven" is it's first year senior school. "Year one" is age 5 years. | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
"The easy answer to this is just have 3 classes. Novice Intermediate Open" ... Why stop there? An easier answer is to have open pony only ... you could save a fortune by cancelling Keysoe and having the final in somebody's back garden. I suppose this is the wrong time to enquire about the proposed junior senior class? | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
I think most juniors in the Wix area enjoy being in their own class because when they compete against each other at Keysoe or at junior competitions they know what they are looking at! I agree with Nicolette, I think that young juniors competing against senior juniors and intermediate juniors is a great idea. They spur each other on and are all very supportive. Also they are more likely to make friends in their age group and have fun together, therefore when the others beat them they have good sportmanship! And about the cut-off date I think it is very clear; if your birthday is before the 1st october your age group is the age you are. If your birthday is not before the 1st october you are 1 year younger! | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
sorry, no idea what a year seven is!! | ||
| Martyn Willis Username: Martynw Registered: 10-2006 |
Flame suit on!!! The easy answer to this is just have 3 classes. Novice Intermediate Open for singles, multiples, horse and pony. Do away with seperate junior classes. | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
Well, it obviously works for you in the Wix area! I must confess I dont think the argument would be changed if the juniors were in the novice class instead. Except, as you say for the adults. But judging from earlier posts the novice adults are actually very positive obout competing against juniors. Getting back to your earlier point, you did of course check that your 11-year old was 11 before 1/10/2009 because if not she would be a young junior. - I think ... I had to write it down on paper, and I'm still not entirely sure I got my maths right. Which of course is my point about complicated cut-off dates. I understand what school year my child is in and I understand what calendar year we are in but I have to keep going back to my piece of paper and pencil for the IHDT cut-off - imagine what it's like for the poor organisers with 45 of them! | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
Yes we are the Wix area. We have (I think), 2 snr jnrs, 2 intermediate jnrs and a young junior. My daughter is 11 and I am more than happy for her to be competing against the older 2 at regional level, her and the young Jnr in our area, hold there own against the older ones. Yes we do have one particalry good Snr Jnr driver, and all that does is spur our younger ones on to get better and better. They are not always that far away, in fact our placings are always Snr Jnr first with the youngest competitors next after that! They all get on well and our Snr Jnr is really supportive of the younger ones. If they didn't have there own class all the adults would get fed up being beaten by Jnrs all the time!! I think we are really lucky to have the Junior class and Juniors are not forced to enter it, we have other Juniors in other classes too. Regards Nicolette | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
I’m guessing that your area is East Anglia. This is the only area that puts its juniors into a separate class. You have 1 senior junior, 1 intermediate and 1 young junior plus two others where ages are not stated. It doesn’t make much sense to me to have them competing against each other. Juniors of different ages are worlds apart. The senior junior in your area is on a par with the best open pony competitors there. The others are much younger. The senior junior also competes as Novice Pony in the Norfolk area so even East Anglians have different hymn-sheets. The internet entry form does not ask for date of birth so organisers do not know, and would have to liaise with junior competitors individually to find out what class they would compete in. For this reason, I think, most areas do not specify what kind of juniors they have. This is a shame because I think the spread of juniors between Keysoe classes would tell a story. I estimate that there are around 45 juniors competing at the moment. Of these 3-4 are “young” juniors and 4-5 are “intermediate” juniors. The rest (approx 35) are senior juniors. So you have two classes that are too small and one that is heavily over-subscribed. Of course, not all these juniors will have the time\resource\urge to compete at Keysoe so in principle you could accommodate most of them with a bit of flexibility over age-ranges. Interestingly, very few juniors will “automatically” qualify for Keysoe. It will be up to IHDT office to invite the rest on the “small pony” model i.e. enough to make up a good class. However, it appears that many of the novice pony slots will be won by juniors so a similar invitation-only approach will be also be necessary for the novice pony classes. I think the invitation system is the only possible approach from IHDT office because the whole thing is just too complicated to create a true “qualification” system – especially if there are a limited number of slots at Keysoe. Personally, I have always favoured a “bums-on-seats” strategy rather than a meritocracy approach but on the other hand IHDT office are doing a great job just to hold the whole thing together. If for the time being small ponies and juniors continue to come on an “invitation-only” basis that's fine by me ...but please have the classes bigger than 4-5 ... let’s at least see a real competition not a small persons’ photo-shoot. As far as the 1st October 2009 cut-off is concerned, I wonder if everybody really does understand it. If organisers put down what class of juniors were competing in their areas I would have more confidence. As I explained in my last post (and now that we have established that East Anglia does have a juniors class but it is not what most of us would regard as a “fair” competition ... and it is the only one of 16 areas to handle juniors like this), it does seem to me that the only time when age is an issue is at Keysoe itself, which is not even close to 1st October. As an alternative suggestion the school year runs very close to the 1st October date and we could all probably understand and agree what a "year seven" junior is. There's enough complication around for parents without adding to it. | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
In our area we do have a junior class with at least 5 juniors in it, we have a wide range of ages in there all competing against each other, from my point of view it should therefore stay as 1st October for the cut off. As long as it is clear on entry forms, when in the year the age is taken from, it shouldn't be an issue if differnt organisations have different cut off dates. Nicolette | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
Yes, but the point was that juniors do not compete (against other juniors)at the beginning of the season. They only compete at Keysoe, which is a full six months later. Against this discrepancy 1st Jan does not look so bad and it is at least consistent wih the other organisations. | ||
| Julie Hoskyns Username: Julieh Registered: 08-2008 |
Taking a wild guess, I would imagine that the date of the 1st October was set as this is more or less the beginning of the 'IHDT' season. It would seem odd to set that cut off date in the middle of our season. | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
There are not enough juniors in any area to have a sensible juniors-only class. As is the case with "small ponies" the only possibility for juniors to compete with each other is at Keysoe in April. So why set your cut-off point on 1st October? It guarantees a six month discrepancy. | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
1st January is less confusing with or without legal jargon. It also lines up with bhdta and ickd. Is ihdt intending to stage more "ickd"-type competitions like the Channel Cup 2009? (hope so!) But if you do it will create problems and confusion for the future if we don't sing from the same songsheet. | ||
| IHDTC Office Username: Ihdtcoffice Registered: 01-2003 |
What is so confusing about junior definitions? Juniors who have have not reached their 18th birthday before the 1st October of that winter's season, means just that. So if a Junior is 18 after that date they are still considered to be a junior until the next season. I hope this clears up any confusing regarding juniors. We try to make things plain and straight forward but still members are confused, perhaps we should rewrite our very simple rules into legal jurgan then everyone will understand!! | ||
| Fiona Powell Username: Fionap Registered: 12-2003 |
My literalist's understanding of the indoor rules is that, if you're 17 or younger or have your 18th birthday on 2 October, you can compete as a junior all season and at the Finals. (However if you have your 60th birthday or are older on 1 October, you can compete as a senior.) Hmmm... (?) Any other opinions - or over to Rita? (Happy New Year!) | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
After reading this thread I think some people may be confusing Outdoor trials rules with the Indoor rules... In the Indoor Driving Trials Uk Rules 2009 (Issue 5); "- 2.4.6 JUNIORS: Competitors under the age of 18 years on the 1st of October of that winter's season." In the christmas newsletter it says.... "JUNIORS Rules: 2.4.Juniors are divided into three age groups at the Championships. 1. Young Driver (8 - 10years) 2. Young Intermediate(10- 14 Years) 3. Senior (14-18years)" So am I right in thinking the newsletter refers to 18year olds under juniors as they wil have turned 18 after the Indoor season starts on October 1st? Could the IHDTA Office possibly just clarify? Sorry to be a pain and Thank You very much! | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
I agree with you Carole, I much prefer reading this Forum than watching the telly. It usually makes me smile (particularly you Martin) and if not, generally gives food for thought. Fiona P (IMHO) is an absolute star and keeps things ticking over with lots of useful info. We all just have to learn how to read the written word as is meant and not jump to foreign conclusions. Keep going all you scribes, it's cheaper than a TV licence and with many more laughs! Dilys G | ||
| Martin Pink Username: Martinpink Registered: 09-2008 |
As a Junior Senior I 'd just like to paraphrase a certain TV presenter & say "wrinkly I'm not !" | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
Sounds good to me. To avoid confusion they should be known as the junior seniors. DS | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
Let's open up a new can of worms here.After all there's nothing worth watching on the Telly and this Forum is far more entertaining anyway!!! With reference to Martin's post, perhaps the "Veteran" classes should now be adjusted! If all these young pups are going to continue making fools of us wrinklies, we should be allowed to call ourselves "Veterans" much earlier so that we can escape to that class! What about when you reach the grand old age of 50????? There could be a 50 - 60 year-olds class, then a 70- 75 then an "old senior" class but to qualify for that one you would have to have a signed declaration note from your parents! There could be a perpetual trophy to compete for presented each year at the Finals by none other than Sir Terry Wogan- now he's retiring he'll have some time on his hands- hey! he might even take up Carriage Driving! Team TOGS!Sounds great! HAPPY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE!! Carole Redgrave. | ||
| IHDTC Office Username: Ihdtcoffice Registered: 01-2003 |
As stated there will be one junior from each area invited to the Championships at Keysoe. Other Juniors may be invited from the same area. The extra young driver class is for 8-10 year olds which was introduced at the last Champs, drivers of this age will be invited according to their ability as will Intermediate and Senior Juniors. Hopefully this is now as clear as mud. To confuse even further: The event at Keysoe is the Championship of the season,competitors who think they have qualified must have shown they are capable of competing within their own class at Championship level, therefore competitors who have been competing against themselves (only one in the class) MUST produce good, regulary achieved scores throughout the season. Competitors who qualify consistantly score well under 250 (many under 200 or even 150)at each event. There is nothing worse than being out classed at a Championship. | ||
| Martin Pink Username: Martinpink Registered: 09-2008 |
I'd like to say what a terrific Competition sunday's Merrist Wood turned out to be; specifically the Novice Pony ! With 8 junior competitors, 5 finished in the top six , 2 got dressage scores of 18.5, & the two Leaders(!) got scores that had they been in open pony would have put them 3rd! So in Surrey at least the future of competition driving looks very very Bright .As a middle aged Novice Pony Driver relegated to a position in double figures am I jealous? You bet I am!!!! | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
Also, BHDTA rules 2009 annex 18 "Young Drivers Rules" section 1.4 states: "Age is determined from the beginning of the calendar year in which the driver and grooms reach the designated age" Will your definition of age be the same as this or different? In your rules so far you have defined "junior" but not "age". I don't think the one is necessarily implied by the other. DS | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
Dear IHDTC office, No, sorry still confused. Do you mean "Only the best Junior from each area will be invited to compete" at Keysoe or do you mean the best junior in each class from each area? Your post implies both but only one can be true. Regards, DS | ||
| IHDTC Office Username: Ihdtcoffice Registered: 01-2003 |
IHDT Championship at Keysoe 2010 = qualifier for Juniors in Hungary. NEWS TO US!!!! Please let me make one thing very clear. Only the best Junior from each area will be invited to compete at our Championship at Keysoe. IT IS NOT OPEN TO ANY JUNIOR TO ENTER. Therefore not be more than 16 juniors invited to compete in each class. The Young junior class was introduced to encourage 8 - 10 year olds, we know there are not many of them as yet but this could change in the future. Intermediate Juniors is to give the younger juniors a chance against the older more experienced junior driver. We started Junior classes to encourage young drivers years ago, that is what this class is about, encouragement NOT qualification for World Championships. | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
Hello, I would urge you to reconsider your age ranges. The ranges you quote were trialled for the first time at the Channel Cup 2009 at Ashfields and at a similar competition in Germany. They were a resounding failure. The “senior junior” class had to be split because it was too large and the young driver (8-10) class was tiny. These age groupings have already been dropped for the next Junior World Trophy in Hungary 2010. There are four qualifying competitions for UK juniors wishing to compete in Hungary: Channel Cup 2009, Escrick Park 2009, keysoe 2010 and a.n.other unspecified event 2010. So there will be a large turnout of juniors at Keysoe because it is a qualifying event. If you continue with the current (discredited) split I would expect you to get 2 or 3 “young driver” juniors (8–10 years), 10 to 12 “Young Intermediate” juniors (10–14 Years) and a large number (20 or more?) of “senior juniors” (15-18). This is because after the age of 14 (magic FEI/BHDTA age price point) there are considerably more junior players. The older age groups are too wide. There is a world of difference between an 11-year old and a 14-year old competitor. If I compete I know it’s a bit of fun. My 11-year old doesn’t. He still believes in a meritocracy and I don’t want to imbue him with my level of cynicism at this early stage. But he and I both know he cant beat the 14-year olds. I do not have a 15-year old (phew!) but I can understand that it is equally unfair for them to compete against 18-year olds. A four year age gap at this level is just too much. The solution would be narrow the age ranges at the top end NOT at the bottom end. A better split of ages would be “Senior Juniors” 16,17,18 “Intermediate Juniors” (i)15,14,13 or (ii)15,14,13,12 “Young juniors” (i) 12 and under or (ii) 11 and under The BHDTA rules on juniors are all new for 2009. The safety rules are sensible. The other rules are a bit late in coming – mainly because nobody in the FEI expected under 14’s to drive. However, it is probably worth pointing out that in its new rules the BHDTA specifies age at the beginning of the calendar year. I believe the IHDT currently uses 1st October which is the start of IHDT season. Interestingly, the now defunct but shortly to be reborn Escrick Park Junior Nationals used 1st June. The Junior World Trophy organisers (ICKD) also use calendar year but they are not officially recognised by the FEI so perhaps they don’t count. It is a bit confusing to use all these different dates so could I suggest we use BHDTA? Finally could I just reiterate John S's comments about the Unicorn Juniors Easter Camp. It's a very safe environment for juniors to develop their driving skills and your children will meet 95% of the other juniors out there on the circuits. And they'll have a lot of fun. Daniel Snow (pp Fleur Snow 13 & Jay Snow 11) | ||
| Mike Watts Username: Mikew Registered: 10-2006 |
John, Sorry that it's hard to track down this information. Rita has now put it in the IHDT Christmas Newsletter (!) and we've updated the IHDT rules to give the height for Small Ponies (11hh without shoes). Here are the age ranges for Juniors at the IHDT finals: 1. Young Driver (8 – 10years) 2. Young Intermediate (10 – 14 Years) 3. Senior (14 - 18years) Juniors outdoors can be from 10 at the discretion of the club: "2.2 At Affiliated Club events other than the Indoor Horse Driving Trials UK the minimum age of a Competitor or Groom is 10 years on the day of the event, but in each case they must be accompanied by a competent adult aged 18 years or over." (rules p143) In practice clubs may set their own higher age limit. There are detailed rules for young drivers here: BHDTA rules page 167 onwards. This stuff is rather detailed because people are wanting to be careful for the younger drivers... | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
Getting back to Mrs Auton's question (first posting) - if she has managed to stick with us for this long - I would recommend taking your daughter and 2-wheeler and small pony along to the Unicorn Easter Junior Clinic at Stow. They cater for all children of all abilities and all ages. The instructors are all BHDTA high fliers. I believe the courses are even subsidised to encourage new entrants to the sport. And best of all you get to meet other parents with a similar affliction to your own so you can sob into your morning coffees about how you wish you'd encouraged yours to play football instead. Worth a try and I guarantee you won't have sleepless nights about 2-wheelers again. Details on the young driver page of BHDTA website. John S | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
New thread "SMALL PONY CLASSES" started by ihdt office has dealt with part (ii) of my question. For this thread suffice it to say that a small pony is not 11.2 and it is not in the rule book. Hopefully it will now go into the rule book so we dont have to plough through it again in 2012. As I said earlier I'm new here and I was not expecting this amount of excitement when I asked how small a small pony was. I wasn't really expecting to be referred back to the rules (or lack of them!) and perhaps I can be forgiven for not checking the threads back to October 2008 to see what a hot topic this is/was. So it is with a certain amount of trepidation that I would like to repeat part(i) of my question: does anyone (perhaps at ihdt office?) have any thoughts about how young a young junior is? Kind regards, John S | ||
| Alan Hodges Username: Alan Registered: 10-2006 |
Your right John S, no such thing as a small pony in BHDTA rules and there is no size limitation in IHDT rules although small pony is mentioned in the class structure. Our anonymous friend with the unhelpful one liners is best ignored. | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
I've done a quick search through ihdt 2009 rule book and bhdta 2009. However, I am very new to this area and you appear not to be. Do you have a specific reference you could point me at? John S | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
its in the rule book | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
I think that the question has moved on to "Where in the rules does it say that a small pony is 11.2h and under?" Is it a convention rather than a rule? John S | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
A small pony is up to 11.2 | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
11.2h seems like an odd height to me. The breed standard for section A is 12h or 122cm. I believe shetlands are up to 10.2h. I could see some logic in a shetlands only class or even a shetlands + welsh mountains but this seems to be neither one nor t'other. Apologies for running the small pony/young driver topics into one thread but I happen to have an 11yr old driving an 11.2h section A! | ||
| Alan Hodges Username: Alan Registered: 10-2006 |
That's just a local/club interpretation and purely arbitrary. We are talking about a national competition here. | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
Well at some events for instance Blandings, they have a small pony class that is for 11.2hh and under and I and many others have heard of other places that do it under the same rules! | ||
| Alan Hodges Username: Alan Registered: 10-2006 |
'Guest' says a small pony is 11.2 and under. There is no mention of this in the rules (Issue 4, Sept 2009) so where does this information come from? One persons small pony is another's big one! | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
Bhdta announced in Nov 2009 news that they are introducing new membership category for 10-16 years old - but no change in the minimum age to compete which is 14. Therefore there is no (official) such thing as a young junior at BHDTA. But they popped up at Keysoe 2009 so there must be an ihdt definition somewhere or perhaps someone should make one up quickly. Junior nationals classes (Escrick Park)are 10-12, 13-14, 15-17 and 18-25. I think some of the ihdt young juniors are less than 10. | ||
| Fiona Powell Username: Fionap Registered: 12-2003 |
The IHDTC rules are based on the BHDTA rules which can be read at www.horsedrivingtrials.co.uk Search for " age"! Minimim ages of 14, 18, etc. for different turnouts apply to national events, however. I've been hunting on the BHDTA site for the young drivers rules... I think children under 10 must have their own public liability insurance: some clubs do not allow them to drive at all (altho' the indoor club encourages youngsters). Also, until they have been assessed by the BHDTA official assessors, aged under 10 I think they have to use a two-wheeler and might have to have a second driver sitting next to them with a set of reins. Keep looking! Someone must know! | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
A small pony is 11.2hh and under and a young junior we think a young junior is 10-12 ???? I know the small pony is correct but you might need to check about the young junior! | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
I see references to "juniors" and "young juniors" in the results sections. How young is a young junior? ... and how small is a "small pony"? | ||
| Martin Pink Username: Martinpink Registered: 09-2008 |
Hope you find a sympathetic organiser , If your daughter is anything like the youngsters at events down south she'll go far , its us old *arts that need supervision! | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
the carriage is not the problem, you will have to speak to the chairman and ask if your daughter can drive at an event with douable reins on the pony,(just for extra safty to start) the indoor is always willing to help, and young drivers are the future | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
thank you for that pointer Martin, i'd read earlier rules and found info a little ambigious but having re read it's clearer! we'll have a close look at what's going on in our area now and hopefuly find an empathetic organiser! ruth | ||
| Martin Pink Username: Martinpink Registered: 09-2008 |
RULE 5.2 vehicles may have 2 or 4 wheels | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
My daughter competed indoors last season in two wheels in club class, had a lovely time and did well - she was 10 - maybe different areas are different?? Nicolette | ||
| Guest Username: New Registered: 12-2006 |
we're interested in encouraging our 9 yr old daughter to enter IHDT but note that it is at the discretion of organiser that she may enter as you have a minimum age of 10yrs. so we posibly could enter, however I then note you only allow 4 wheel carriages! we have a 2 wheeler and can't afford another carriage at the moment so we are prohibited from entering! Our daughter has driven for approx 2 yrs with her own pony & 2 wheel carriage [which I feel is much better for a novice driver any way] and whilst she drives our 16hh horse to a four wheeler at var/www very competently, I don't feel she is ready, nor is it appropriate, to drive this turnout at a competition! What is the rationale for this rule please as a 2 wheeler is safe? Ruth Auton, Leicestershire |